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Help on art and part liability

10 replies

Carer12345 · 13/06/2024 17:54

I never harmed someone in an attack but I'm on the cctv I'm a first offender will I go to prison on art and part as I've been charged with the same charge as the perpetrators

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Elleherd · 13/06/2024 18:48

Not a lawyer. I would assume it will depend on how serious/nasty the attack and end results are, and if you've been charged because you're seen as an instigator, the instigator, an accomplice, how much you assisted/encouraged/counseled (can include jeering etc) etc.
You are unlikely to have been charged with art and part just because you were on the cctv, at best it's likely to be as an accessory before the fact.
You might want to try on the legal boards, but don't forget to mention it's Scottish law not English.

Elleherd · 13/06/2024 21:19

I got your message, but with no disrespect there isn't enough there to make much sense of it all, and I'm not a lawyer.

I would suggest you write down and explain the whole story on the legal boards (they're on the expanded menu with AIBU etc) giving more relevant information on the lead up, whats happened, and how you come to be on cctv and caught up in it, so more knowledgeable people can advise.

If you're saying this was absolutely nothing to do with you and you didn't know these people and simply happen to be at the same place same time and this is shown on CCTV, your defense would have to fail to show how you just happened
to be there, and the prosecution would have to establish a connection between you and the assailants/victim before eight members of any jury could possibly agree to convict you of being involved.

If you could see that another person was likely to commit a crime and it can be shown you 'intended to encourage or assist them' then you can be charged with joint enterprise, which as you probably know is when you get charged as well with what the main assailant did, because you were a part of it. This can include standing around 'watching the spectacle unfolding,' etc.

Carer12345 · 14/06/2024 11:35

And also this was not a murder or life threatening injuries but I just don't want to go to prison if I did not even do nothing it's not right

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Elleherd · 14/06/2024 15:39

I understand you don't want to say to much about what's gone on, but it's really hard to help you on the very limited amount of information given, both here and what was pm'd. No one can help you assess a situation if they don't know what the situation is.

There are so many variables depending on what exactly happened to who, by who, how it started, if it appears to have been pre planned, if you could reasonably have been expected to know that, and how near you were, if you were carrying/holding things for the attacker (ie coat, bag, bike) or picked anything up for them, shouted anything before, during after, what your body language says on cctv, etc. How you (and they) are dressed can say something to back up or counteract a story.
What sort of weapon was used ie length, type etc, can make a nasty situation even 'worse.' ie if someone you were out with pulls out a large knife or machete, then it's not unreasonable to assume those with them would have known they were carrying it around.

'Art and part' means aiding or abetting in making a crime happen, which can mean encouraging or assisting, which includes things like helping them look like they're part of a couple so they can get close enough to attack, or being an accessory before or at the time, which would cover things like telling the attacker the victim would be there, or holding the attackers possessions so their hands are free.

Not physically doing something ("I did not even do nothing") doesn't mean a person wasn't behind, or encouraged, or was part of an attack, or aided and abetted, or was an accessory. (I'm not saying you were - just that that's the law)

Also how old you (and possibly them) are, if you have kids, etc can make a lot of difference. I'm assuming you to be female btw.

From what else you have said your defense team would be putting forward a defense of you not knowing what was about to happen and being rooted to the spot with shock, therefore not voluntarily involved. But someone COPFS has decided their is sufficient evidence to charge you with being actively involved.

I don't know enough about Scottish law (i'm assuming because of the charges wording) to know if there is anything unusual going on here or not.

But: in the UK there would have to be something (probably caught on CCTV) that suggested you either aided, or knew what was going to happen, for the CPS to decide there was a reason to charge you with being part of it rather than a (possibly hostile) witness to it.

Given there's so little info on what actually happened to work with: why do you think you might be going to prison? Why do you think you wouldn't have a defense to the charge and wouldn't be believed? What has your solicitor said?

Carer12345 · 14/06/2024 18:41

Basically along the same lines you have said I look like I'm part of it but I'm not. I just happened to be there when a fight broke out I didn't know what was going to happen I just think I'll be sent to prison because I'm on camera and they have charged me and said my hands are gesturing but I was not egging this on I was shocked. I've never been to prison and have a clean record

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HowDidJudithSurvive · 14/06/2024 18:52

Did you know the attackers? Surely it will fairly easy for your defence to prove you were unrelated to them in anyway and happened to just be walking past or whatever?

Elleherd · 14/06/2024 20:29

Regarding the the small bit of info pm'd - it's irrelevant - a majority of people and police absolutely don't want it happening on their streets, and don't need 'it' (the thing you've said) to move forward in trying to prevent seriously dangerous crap on the streets.

If you've been the same with the police in terms of not explaining how things unfolded, then they've only got cctv to go off, which they and the COPFS are reading as you 'gesticulating/gesturing, and the knowledge of your connection, which I believe means they have 'evidence of a crime', and 'corroboration' of his and your actions, which is enough to put it before the courts if I understand the Scottish system.

Not having a previous criminal record would make it far less likely that you would be sent to prison if you were found guilty, if the results of the attack on the victim weren't too brutal (bearing in mind what happened would be considered brutal by anyone normal and is in the well serious category of offenses) and from what little you've said you'd be the lesser partner, but again, there just isn't enough info for anyone to give you any sort of decent guess opinion.

I'd suggest finding yourself the best legal representative you can.

Carer12345 · 14/06/2024 20:33

Thank you so much

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Elleherd · 14/06/2024 21:48

If by 'they' you mean the perpetrator, why would anyone find them to be 'a reliable narrator of fact?' Not exactly someone your average person would say 'oh if they says it, it must be true' are they?

It may not be fair, but you need someone others 'look up to', to say they see you as not involved.
This is why defendants generally have skilled educated people as representatives to speak for them in courts.

Carer12345 · 14/06/2024 22:13

Just worried as I'm innocent but cameras can Make you look different with your actions I'm just worried as never been in bother before and don't want to end up in prison for that

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