Lucy Letby denied leave to appeal

[Viviennemary]

Just heard on the news Lucy Letby the convicted serial killer has been denied leave to appeal. Good decision I think. She should stay behind bars for the rest of her life.

As I’ve said before I’ve had a lot of time sadly spent in nicu and scbu units and I have never seen a room that wasn’t busy or with multiple staff - so the fact nobody ever saw her do anything and how it was stated sometimes she was alone ? That seems very strange with the first hand knowledge I have of these units ?

That’s an excellent question and it’s one that the New Yorker article also raises. I have no idea why they didn’t, but I’d certainly like to know. I’d be very comforted to hear that there was a good reason for not doing so, but it’s difficult to see what that reason could be that wouldn’t also affect the validity of that evidence in the first place. It could be the case that they were disallowed from doing so. It could be that they chose not to for whatever reason. Nonetheless this is what he says. It could be that the defence weren’t aware of this, which casts doubt on the integrity of the defence case. Even if she was totally guilty for absolute certain, caught red handed, the lack of witnesses (expert and otherwise) called by the defence is extremely odd.

That’s one of many questions about this case that can’t be just shrugged off without an answer, hence why we are having the discussion in the first place.

The defence were doing a massively complex case on a legal aid budget. Expert witnesses cost money and U.K. doctors can be reluctant to do so as it may affect their careers. Expert witnesses can be procured from the US but that costs a lot of money.

While I thought Myers made some good arguments, I wasn’t convinced by the defence grasp of the medical data. The decision not to argue with the insulin and air embolism theories given their weaknesses is very strange. And the failure to present expert witnesses for the defence was a major flaw in the case. You can on here people drawing the false inference that there was no arguing with the prosecution case. In fact - the prosecution case was remarkably weak.

I’m very sorry to hear that you had cause to spend time in NICU units ❤️

Agreed. I think it’s odd that they didn’t call anybody at all though, as far as I’m aware, save the hospital janitor. Even the worst barrister defending the most guilty person imaginable will find someone to come in and talk about how nice the accused is. LL has her supporters. I understand that one of the senior nurses from the same hospital (now retired) has always stood by her and came to the trial along with her parents every day. She does have her supporters, friends, family, and independent experts, but aside from the friend (Dawn Howe) we haven’t heard from anyone on her side either in print or at the trial. I find that odd.

Thankyou luckily it all turned out ok but I’m just so perplexed by what i experienced (at more than one hospital) and can’t imagine it being as described at the hospital Lucy letby worked at. The units were always so busy and even when I’d go down at night unannounced it was never empty or just one nurse there so it sounds so strange that anyone could manage to do this In the way it is alleged she did.

There was a colleague of hers who was interviewed by someone and I think filmed and put on YouTube but I’ve not listened to it.

I do think a few of her colleagues who are her friends, would be scared to voice opinions and speak up for her, especially if there’s a medical coverup happening. Who’s going to be the lone wolf doing that and then returning to the hospital to work?

It’s very odd. Given they had someone of the calibre of Michael Hall and he doesn’t even know why he wasn’t called - makes it even odder. They may have felt like he didn’t have the right expertise in the relevant disciplines to pack the biggest punch - but tbh anything would have been better than nothing.

I hope there’s a documentary in the future where she turns out to be a scapegoat and those two men mentioned in the NYT article over and over again will be behind it. It will talk about how the media pulled her through the ringer. It will conclude that the babies died from unknown causes, because that’s what can happen when a baby weighs 3lbs. No baby murders done by anyone.

The article could have been the documentary itself, it just needs Letby’s real voice in between, describing how terrified she was.

I hope.

I agree here. She’s a young average looking white woman, probably on the side of pretty rather than ugly but you see lots of women like her, in similar clothes, doing similar things she did outside work. I’ve even seen similar looking nurses to her when I had to go to hospital earlier this year for a procedure and appointments.

She’s not some stunning beauty who made doctors fall at her feet.

But the thing is, don’t let us get ahead of ourselves here. We don’t want to immediately presume she’s innocent, until if it ever happens it’s investigated properly.

I was someone on another thread about LL last year who was convinced she was innocent until I listened to podcasts etc. So evidence both ways re listened opinions and this new article and so on is polarising, for me anyway.

It was only in the news a week or so ago about the awful cover ups in the nhs and the horrific way whistleblowers are threatened and punished so anything is possible .

Better to make the public feel safe that a lone psychopath is locked up and can’t harm anyone than admitting that a whole organisation meant to ‘do no harm’ is in fact doing great harm

I’ve known for years with my DB about cover ups in NHS. Mistakes that could cost him his life, a consultant wrongly saying in his presence he wouldn’t live past eg 12 years and my parents when they complained basically told if you try to sue the NHS it won’t work, you’ll lose. So you shut up, keep quiet.

Nodding profusely here!

If the amount of coverups in the NHS come out apart from the ones known about already then this one with LL will pale into comparison besides it.

I could say more about hospitals including my local one… but it’s just too depressing.

medical coverup

I don’t personally see this as an intentional cover up and I don’t think that would work.

Jayaram was relatively new in the role as head of paediatrics - so if there’s a sudden jump in death rates on his watch - his career is on the line. I think he had a vested interest in convincing himself there were dastardly deeds afoot. I do believe he believes it. And I think he convinced other consultants around him. But people can be blinded by their own desire to deceive themselves.

Then the police found grail in the form of Dewi Evans who was happy to take an elastic approach to scientific data and concoct all manner of wild hypotheses. And do what you should never do - try to fit the evidence to the theory rather than vice versa.

Yep. Confirmation bias. Looking for evidence to back up your bias while ignoring the evidence that disproves it. e.g. the third raised insulin baby.

Calling nobody but a plumber makes it look like the defense thought she was guilty and that there was no hope of defending her.

Why not call an expert after the plumber who would be able to explain the types of pathogens etc that could possibly have contaminated the place and how long they can live on surface areas etc.

To just call a plumber is ridiculous.

Yes, NICU babies dying because of a poorly run hospital which we know has had many many issues which have led to it being downgraded and has equivalent spikes in stillbirths, is far more likely than a nurse suddenly decided to start killing babies several years after the began working at the hospital. That doesn’t mean she isn’t guilty of course, but it is more statistically surprising than the chart showing that LL was present for all the deaths, therefore she must have done it - even though she actually wasn’t present for all the deaths that fitted into the supposedly ‘suspicious’ cases in that time period.

That doesn’t hold water for a second I’m afraid. If this was, as you say, because the defence felt it was pointless then that is very damning for the defence.

As I say, even the most guilty person with the weakest defence team, will have someone called in their defence, no matter how hopeless the defence feel. That they didn’t is really quite extraordinary. There is something to this and that something isn’t the defence’s laziness or lack of investment, which is what your explanation would uncontroversially point towards. Even if this was why they didn’t call anyone in her defence this would mean she did not have a proper defence and that in itself would lead to very serious doubts about the trial as well as the verdict.

That's what I was getting at.
The defence has to do their utmost to provide a strong defence and they didn't.

When I said 'it makes it seem like they thought she was guilty and had no hope of defending her''....I meant that that is what it would have looked like to the jury, and that's what it seemed to look like to much of the public. That there was literally nothing the defence could dispute so that's why they called no witnesses.

I don't think that that is the actual reason though! I do think that there is more to it, as as you said they have a duty to provide a proper defence even if they believe their client is guilty as sin.

Presumably the senior nurse who apparently went to the trial every day. She was retired by the time the court case came around, which may be why she even went in the first place. As you say, it would be really hard to stand by her publicly in that workplace now.

Yes, I agree 100%.

I was surprised she used the same defence team for her appeal because I did think that maybe she would have went down the 'poor representation' route.

But then according to the New Yorker article he wasn't sure if any his letters had ever reached her and messages weren't allowed to be passed on so I wonder if she has access to anyone advising her apart from that initial legal team?

Glad it turned out welllfor you! I have never commented on this point before because I don’t have experience of NICUs, but I did wonder if this doesn’t seem odd, particularly in such an overworked and busy hospital.