Caught in the middle between two friends

[MaeFlower]

Bit of a delicate situation and I want some advice on how to navigate it. Apologies in advance that this is quite long.

So there are two friends of mine, Friend 1 and Friend 2.

Friend 1 is older, about 30 years older than me. She has been in and out of my life since I was young, started off as family friend but as other people have passed on it’s basically me and her left.

She is generally good hearted but can be a bit selfish and difficult, especially as she gets older. She can be very blunt.

Friend 2 is the same age as me, I’ve known her about 15 years and I am much closer to her these days (both practically and emotionally, we live virtually next door to one another).

She is very, very private, and also extremely busy at work (other people’s jobs depend on her performance etc). She can be a bit of a people pleaser and over stretch herself for others. She is working on this in therapy though and making progress, but early days.

Friend 1 and Friend 2 only know one another through me. Friend 1 thinks they are friends. Friend 2 doesn’t. Friend 2 doesn’t really like or trust Friend 1.

This is largely due to some fairly blunt things Friend 1 said to me in front of Friend 2 quite a long time ago, when Friend 2 and I were newly friends.

I had the shared history and knowledge etc to take those things differently. It did affect my friendship with Friend 1 but it didn’t end it. It created a bad impression with Friend 2 though, as at that point they’d only met a few times.

Friend 2 basically tolerates Friend 1 for my sake. She is civil and kind to her when they do meet, but there is nothing much more to it. They don’t call or meet up independently of me. We don’t meet up as a trio or in small groups either, it’s just basically about them both being present at larger occasions.

Recently, Friend 1 lost her husband in difficult circumstances. She’d been his carer for a few years and his final couple of days were pretty traumatic, in part due to how overstretched the NHS is just now. They’d been married over 50 years and she is pretty lost.

She has asked me to ask Friend 2 to do something for her. It’s not something I can do, due to skills/knowledge/qualifications. She’s pretty much asked me to ask Friend 2 to do it as a favour to me.

Friend 2 is absolutely up against it professionally just now. She will be for at least another year.

Friend 2 would likely try to do it if I asked. Or at least feel very bad about saying no. So I really don’t want to ask her. She’d also be horrified if I told Friend 1 anything about her circumstances, or even that she had circumstances. Friend 1 is pretty indiscreet so I understand why.

Friend 1 is very vulnerable at the minute but trying to pretend she’s fine. She is starting to run out of favours from other friends. There are other things I can help her with but not this. I could help her with this if she was prepared to do it another way, but she is pretty resistant to change.

Usually I’d just be fairly direct with both people but I don’t think that will work as both are in a tight spot just now.

What do I do/say that is kind and respectful to both people in the circumstances?

My best guess at the moment is to try to sidestep it as best I can but I don’t think Friend 1 will drop it.

I think you need to tell us what the favour is, legal advice?

Friend 1 should be paying someone for whatever she needs from Friend 2. Is there a financial issue why she can’t? It really depends how long it is etc.

I would just say to Friend 1 that you can’t ask friend 2 about it sorry. As you know she has a lot going on right now and don’t feel able to put her in that position.

@Squiggles23 it’s not legal advice (or any professional/business service). It’s more of a personal thing, it’s a bit convoluted really, an odd combination of different things. It’s not something you could find someone else to do and pay them for it. There aren’t any money issues, more that it’s hell that would be difficult to find on a pay basis.

Normally I would just say something like you suggest, but I think Friend 2 would be a bit uncomfortable with me saying even something like that.

Friend 1 would also probably feel hurt by my saying that, and she is currently very distressed and feeling isolated having lost her husband. She is objectively very vulnerable at the minute.

It is difficult to give advice without knowing the favour, but in your shoes I would just ask friend 2 if they can do the favour.

I would explain the circumstances to Friend 2 and see what she says. Then say you'll absolutely understand if she can't do it. Then you've asked, you can tell Friend 1 that you've asked, but the ball is not in your court.

Maybe there's someone else you could ask, who would be able to do it? Round here there is a Help Scheme with volunteers who do things for elderly people.

Or could you frame a question to friend 2... who would she recommend friend 1 approaches to help her in this situation?
Being quite clear that is ALL you are asking her... for advice for a referral.. NOT for her to help.
Hopefully you can then go back to friend 1 with an answer that will not offend/dismiss her, but not include friend 2.
Can you say that friend 2s job precludes her from personal involvement?
Hope you can follow all that!!

I mean this kindly ( not always obvious on the internet) but it's actually you that seems to be the people pleaser.

You should say to friend 1 ( who actually isn't even close to friend 2) that friend 2 is snowed under at the moment but next time you see her you will mention it.

Friend 2 - I know you are really busy right now but friend 1 could really benefit with some of your advise. Are you free to have a cuppa with us or is there any useful info I can pass on?

Remember you are not letting anyone down. You are just passing on a message between 2 adults. It's not awkward and do not apologise to either of them if friend 2 says no she's too busy.

Thank you. I really don’t foresee being able to get anyone else to do this, partly because of what it is and partly because Friend 1 is unlikely to want a stranger to do it. As I write that, I realise the latter bit is probably the key stumbling block.

I can see a way to achieve the same result by offering to do something else, myself. I just don’t think Friend 1 will accept that, at least not now. She might, in time, but she is likely to push for an answer in the meantime. She is the type to push and push for not just the outcome she wants, but for it being in the way she wants it done.

Normally I would give that type of attitude fairly short shrift (and I have done that with her in the past), but she has just lost her husband. I am pretty worried about her state of mind.

She has been talking about not knowing how she is going to carry on without him, that life doesn’t seem worth living anymore. That is genuinely how she is feeling I think, not a guilt trip. I have already tried steering her towards grief counselling, and her husband’s support team (he had multiple disabilities at the end and she was his carer) have offered to access this for her too. They are still visiting her regularly but that will end fairly soon too I think.

I also don’t want to ask Friend 2. She is likely to feel obliged to help, even if I say she isn’t. She is also genuinely pretty close to breaking point. At the moment, I am trying to give her what practical and emotional support I can (cat sitting when she has to travel for work, asking her if she is remembering to eat during the day etc).

If I tell Friend 1 that Friend 2 refused, she is going to be hurt and also think that Friend 2 doesn’t like her. Which is true.

But Friend 2 would be horrified by that, especially at this time. Friend 1 really isn’t in a place to find out who her friends really are at the moment anymore than she is already doing.

If I could just do it myself I would but I can’t.

Unfortunately it’s not a matter of some advise. It involves doing something practical on an occasional basis for about the next six months.

I think they are both very vulnerable at the moment and deserve a bit of support and protection.

Yes, it is essential to have boundaries, but it is also ok to love people and want to help them when they are in difficulty. Over the years they have both cared for and supported me when I have been in dire straits.

As an aside, I do think as a society we’ve gone too far down the “you don’t owe anyone anything” route. Caring for other people, even if they have faults, isn’t something to be pathologised as people pleasing.

Thank you, this is helpful. I do want to take a creative and thoughtful approach to this.

Unfortunately I don’t think there is anyone else that could be referred in, the help isn’t really of the form of a commercially available services. It’s not got anything to do with Friend 2’a job, it’s just that Friend 2 is too busy at work to be able to do it. So it’s not something she could give a professional recommendation for.

But you have got me thinking and Friend 2 does travel a lot for work. That is also something that is common knowledge and Friend 2 wouldn’t mind me reiterating. I could gently remind Friend 1 of that as she might not be factoring it in.

Friend 1 would very much want the help at times that suited her and wouldn’t want to have to work to someone else’s schedule. She also hates the idea of being regularly dependent on other people.

That might make her more open to doing it in the way I could help her with it (which will involve switching some things to being online). If I also emphasise that doing it that way will make her less depend on others as well as being able to set her own timeline, I think that might actually work.

And I could give her a bit of support either in person or on the phone to get things set up. She actually pretty good with online things already, I think she just doesn’t realise the extent of what can be done online these days and that that would mean she could work around this.

If there was anyone else generally in the vicinity/community that could do it that she trusted , I think Friend 1 would have already asked them.

Thank you again, that really helped.

I agree with @wheretoyougonow. You’ve created this situation by not saying at the outset that if Friend 1 wants something, she needs to ask herself. It’s not your responsibility that she mistakenly thinks Friend 2 is her friend.

You are all adults and you have to let people make their own decisions. Ask friend 2 the question then let friend 1 know the answer.

Support friend 2 by saying you know she is busy but didnt think you could say no without asking. Or support her to help if she says yes and there are any parts that can be delegated.

Support friend 1 by helping where you can and offering alternative options if friend 1 says no.

I just don’t think she needs to find out that Friend 2 isn’t her friend right now. I think she knows she has a better chance of it happening if she asks me to ask, and she wouldn’t ask if she wasn’t fairly desperate.

The thing is, it’s not really the practical help that is the source of the desperation. It’s the loss of her husband. They married in their early twenties, having met as teenagers and were married for over 50 ( in fact nearly 60 years). She doesn’t want to think about having to do things differently, because that will involve facing he is gone forever. Which she will have do, but I think doing that gradually, given her age, will be a lot better.

In a few months when she isn’t as recently bereaved, fine, then realising who was and wasn’t there for but genuinely I think she is in a very vulnerable position just now.

I was very worried about her during the first week after her husband died. To me there was a possibility they would be one of those old couples you hear about where one dies and the other dies a few days later of a broken heart (which is a thing, medically speaking).

It’s coming up to a month now and I think she is in a stronger place, but not great. She just doesn’t need any more to deal with on an emotional level.

In different circumstances I would agree with you, but I don’t think that will work this time.

I would not drop this on friend2. An ongoing commitment for maybe 6 months (if I've read that right) for someone who is not her friend when she's already under pressure? I wouldn't even ask her.

I would just say to friend1 that friend2 is really busy with work and has lots of work travel coming up so won't be able to help. That's not giving any personal info away about friend2.

Then say to friend1 "I can see how important this is to you. How can we work it out another way? I'll help however I can"

If she refuses to consider dealing with it in any other way then there's nothing more you can do. You're a good friend to her, you're doing all you can

@User884721 Thank you, the wording you suggest is really helpful, I am definitely struggling with how to put things so she knows she is still loved and this really hits the spot.

“"I can see how important this is to you. How can we work it out another way? I'll help however I can"

With respect, it isn’t your place to try to keep her alive! She will almost certainly survive bereavement, as many widowed women do, and she will adjust to no longer being her husband’s carer, but this can’t be contingent on you persuading your friend, who doesn’t like her and has her own stuff going on, to provide some kind of ongoing service for six months, or contingent on you furthering her delusion about the other woman being her friend. You aren’t doing Friend 1 any favours. It’s nice that you’re there as a support, but it’s not your job to solve her life.

@Huldrafolk Honestly, I think being a bit protective for a limited period of time is alright in the circumstances.

I mentioned the place she’s in to explain why I didn’t want to add to her stresses at the moment, not because I think her survival is contingent upon this particular part of the situation.

She’s just got enough on her plate and I will do what I can to avoid adding to it, whilst giving her what help I can.

I do know her pretty well after 40 odd years and I do know the kind of thing that would affect her more than she would let on. She would feel it as being kicked whilst she was down.

It’s not ideal that Friend 1 doesn’t know that Friend 2 doesn’t like her. It’s not how I would have chosen to handle things. But that wasn’t up to me to say “By the way Friend 2 doesn’t like you”.

I would tell her that friend 2 is too busy for you to ask.

At the end of the day they’re not friends. The fact that friend 1 won’t ask shows that even she knows that.

@IAmThe1AndOnly Yes, I suspect that is true, even if she only realises on some level. She does often mistake someone being friendly for them being a friend, things have arisen from that before, mostly where she’s been taken advantage of slightly by trusting people a bit too much.

So she is aware of it and this may be her testing whether her suspicions are true.

Paradoxically, it’s probably also why she wants someone she knows to help her with this- she realises people might try to take advantage of her a bit in her current circumstances.

There’s already been some business with the neighbour of a friend offering to look after something for her, then making her a pretty lowball financial offer to “take it off her hands”. Or another “friend” asking outright to be gifted some of her late husband’s possessions (not a memento, more like equipment). It’s pretty sickening tbh. And on reflection I think that’s partly why I’m getting pretty protective of her. I see some vultures circling.

Anyway, I think I will tell her that I haven’t been able to speak properly to Friend 2 as she has been away for work. Which is true. And that I know that Friend 2 is going to be away with work a lot over the rest of the year. But I see how important this is to Friend 1 to get moving with this, so why don’t we put our heads together and come up with an another way of doing things where I can help her instead.

I think she’ll likely understand the situation a bit better there, without it being too blunt, but realise that there is still help for her there.