Does a pie need a top and bottom?

[ladymalfoy45]

So,I'm making a chicken pie and my DH is of the opinion that a pie needs a top and bottom. I think it just needs a top. ( Like Cottage or Shepard's pie) .
The recipe just has a short crust top( but I fancy making a flaky pastry one instead).
So does a pie need a bottom? TKC ( The Kitchen Cabinet) says not.
I don't mind doing the bottom as well as the top ,but it's the definition of ' pie' that I need you all to help me with.
It's a recipe from Saturday Kitchen Live I'm making. Just to address any further question.

Good point. The fact that there’s no other word for it is because it’s always been known as a pie.
shepherds, cottage and fish pie are pies because they have a similar structure to a pie made with pastry.

As an aside... if it is just a top, it should be cooked ON the filling, not cooked separately and then rested upon the pot/dish/whatever.
Travesty.

Off topic, but when people refer to flaky pastry, am I right to think they mean short crust?

Puff pastry is different to short crust

No, but also known as ‘rough puff’.
Interesting user name. It has suddenly made me sad.

Yep. Top, bottoms and sides 🥧

Exactly this. I’ll only order pies out and about if they’re proper encased pies. But at home it’s too much faff to make them so I unashamedly make top only pies, and anyone who complains is told that it’s too much faff for anything other than a very special occasion and they’re welcome to make one if they prefer. (One child did once but it came out v soggy so he gets the extra steps now and it is a faff!)

A pie has a top and bottom, a 'pot pie' only has a top.

Don't get me started on pubs that serve a 'pie' that is a stew with a circle of pastry on it.

Though I will make mince pies cos I haven’t ever found a shop bought one I like, apart from v fancy ones from artisan bakery and even they aren’t as nice as homemade ones with thin crisp pastry.

This I absolutely do agree with.

The most fun part when my Mum taught me to make steak pie was crimping down the edges of the pastry against the dish and then going round the edge with a knife to tidy it up.

DD has pointed out thst pumpin pie does not have a top. We use a recipe from the mother of a family friend who listening her early 100s now - but anyway, she's a New Yorker, so I assume it pretty authentic.

Then Key Lime Pie is a biscuit base,

These American pies bring a new facet to the debate.

I think it’s a bit of a side issue because Americans don’t seem to know the word tart.
My granny, by contrast, referred to all dessert pies as tarts even if encased in pastry, reserving the word pie for something with meat in it.

Well, it’s not a side issue at all because it perfectly illustrates that “pie” has no fixed meaning. So trying to conflate language and the actual qualities of the food will inevitably result in misunderstandings. OP’s DH should not be on a high horse making a fuss that she has “done pie wrong” and should instead simply ask for a pie with a crust on the bottom next time he wants one.

Oh and by the way- custard pie, as in the type that get smooshed in your face in slapstick comedy…no top!
(in fact, usually no pastry at all!) 😂

Rough puff is different to puff pastry

But is it the same as flaky? That’s the question.

my opinion is no it doesn’t technically need a bottom but I’m always disappointed when I get a pie that doesn’t!

Nope, it's to do with the way the fat (butter) is incorporated. Flaky pastry has the butter added as a layer then the pastry folded and rolled folded again left to cool, rolled and folded left to cool. It builds up the layers and takes time to make (just buy it ready made).

I think your just using the sides and bottom to cheat the poor Scots of a fair amount of meat filling by substitution of pastry.

Oh I agree. Give me all the meat and stick your pastry! 😂

According to the ‘Radiation Cookery Book’ what you describe is puff pastry whereas ‘rough puff’ or ‘flaky’ pastry uses a similar method but you add the fat as lumps.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever heard the word tart referring to a topless pie in the US. Tarte tatin, yes, but that's different.

My Irish mother (aged 90) calls an apple pie and all other sweet pies "tarts" even though they're two-crust pies. Only savoury pies are "pies" as far as she's concerned (steak & kidney, etc). And "pizza pie"...

Yes. I was thinking that people do seem to be overvaluing the pastry and undervaluing the meat stew element. I suppose it’s a combination of intensive farming, high labour costs and maternal employment.
In a pub recently my friend ordered what I expected to be a steak pie as pictured above to illustrate Scottish tastes and when it turned up it looked like a mini- pork pie - very underwhelming!

My Irish mother (aged 90) calls an apple pie and all other sweet pies "tarts" even though they're two-crust pies.

Yes, I'm Irish and it's always apple tart or rhubarb tart to me.

Restaurants here seem to write 'apple pie' on menus, but everyone I know says apple tart. Two crusts. Often fairly thin, ie cooked on a plate, though you can get slightly deeper ones too.

In my head the very deep ones are pies (restaurant style) and the thinner ones are tarts.
But I probably made that up myself🤔

Dutch apple pies are very deep. They have a pastry bottom and top; the top is lattice. The Dutch word is Appeltaart. So I don’t think that a tart is necessarily thin, and it certainly isn’t topless in the place that the word originated.

Like pie, I doubt that “tart” has a fixed meaning.