Law on taking a photo in which your child happens to be naked?

[Karstill]

I've looked at CSA / indecent images laws obviously, but they don't explicitly cover this.

Example scenario, your 2 yr old and the dog are playing in the (private) garden. It's hot and he's naked because you're in the middle of potty training. You take a photo of child throwing ball for dog. Child just happens to be naked.
You keep the photo for yourself and don't share it online obviously! But you don't want to delete it because your child looks so happy in it and it's a memory of a great day.
Have you committed an offence? If so would the police apply any exemptions because this image is only possessed by the parents and is innocent?

I haven't actually got a naked photo of my own children, but I definitely have a printed photo of myself from the 80s! I've also seen naked photos of a friend's kids, shown to me on her phone. Am I a criminal?

You were wrong to do that.

we all have different beliefs in life and have our own way of doing things.

OP, I don’t think it’s at all bizarre that you’re thinking about this. It’s something I’ve definitely considered as well. I think it may come from exposure to people in life who do use exactly those sorts of innocent photos for nefarious reasons and experiences of SA yourself and in children close to you.

I don’t know what the law is, but I have a few photos of my own dc from when they were younger, taken entirely innocently in the garden, that I would not send to Dh on WhatsApp for example.

Because the sad reality is that it is photos like these that do get traded as CSAM, not only images of abuse, if they fall into the wrong hands. My MIL is close to someone who has convictions for CSA (not images specifically, but abuse of a child in his care). I won’t let her take any photos of my dc like that. I’ve had to stop her from taking naked photos in the bath. Because she will send them to him ‘because they’re just innocent photos’.

The concern is not in the intent with which they were taken, but in how they are used by the sickos who may get their hands on them. I’d always rather err on the side of caution.

How can checking the law be weird when you have posters claiming there is a law against it. You have to protect yourselves these days not just against actual laws but ones that just appear in people's heads fully formed.

Just the other day someone mentioned a law about taking photos of others in public without permission which simply doesn't exist.

It's about intent really. Think about naturist places where everyone is naked. They are not illegal and examinations in hospitals are not either.

Also for those horrified about nakedness in general I'd like to point out that when you're in a supermarket queue everyone is naked under their clothes 😁

Wow it really is pile on day 😆

I'm an ordinary innocent mother who doesn't wish to land in jail / have a fight with the police. I was happily living my life and not wondering about these things at all UNTIL I read a random thread on Mumsnet where everyone said it was illegal to take a photo of a child's bum for innocent reasons. I was really surprised that this was illegal, so I googled 'is it illegal to take a photo of your new own child naked' because you should never just take random mumsnetters' advice as gospel! But the law seemed really unclear. So I asked here. Simples. A very ordinary thought process.

Thank you to all the people who answered genuinely.

No it's not weird, families have taken photos of children since cameras were mainstream. Your family don't have any pictures of you playing in the bath?

I’ve often wondered this too OP (as my sister keeps sending me ‘cute family pics’ that I really don’t want on my phone) sorry for the trolls trying to make you feel bad 🙄

Anyway

• it is an offence to possess, distribute, show and make indecent images of children
• the Sexual Offences Act 2003 (England and Wales) defines a child, for the purposes of indecent images, as anyone under the age of 18

‘Indecent’ is not defined in legislation. When cases are prosecuted, the question of whether any photograph of a child is indecent is for a jury, magistrate or district judge to decide based on what is the recognised standard of propriety

So basically if you take or have a naked picture of a child, it’s potentially illegal and whether or not you get prosecuted basically depends on whether the police think it looks indecent or innocent.

I don’t take them and I don’t want to receive them, because I know someone who got cautioned over having naked children playing in the background of a photo. He wasn’t interested in the kids but the police thought it was indecent (and wanted to show that they were tough on crime) so now he has a caution.

Something very very odd about this thread.

This is an extract from a thread posted onto the Lucy Faithfull forum (family and friends of sex offenders)

Indecent is generally defined. An indecent picture will fall into 3 categories (A,B,C) and 10 levels on the COPINE SCALE.
Only the pictures on the lowest scale and category will be ambiguous (ex definition of erotic posing).

Thank you @Elswhere and @Marssuri . Wish I hadn't googled the COPINE scale, but it was useful. Category 2 appears to be what we are talking about here, and it appears that we are at mercy of the opinion of police officers. Marssuri's story, and the story up thread about the celebrity, are scary. I think I won't risk it, and might give my friend the heads up that she might want to delete hers. She probably has no idea of the risk either.

You might also want to stop giving hints to sex offenders of what they can and can't get away with.

I don't believe for one second you are genuinely launching a one woman investigation to save your friend. Sorry.

Righto. So does that apply as a good defence against every crime then?
"Oh sorry officer, I had no idea XYZ was illegal. I would have asked people if it was a crime, but I was worried that asking online might encourage other people to do the crime, so I didn't ask."
"Oh I understand completely, madam. Since you decided it might be a crime, but decided not to find out, that's absolutely fine. We'll let you off."

We all know taking pics of kids is normal. It's the unclothed bit that's not which I'm sure you know is not the same thing.
To answer your question, I don't know, I don't recall as such but wouldn't definitely say yes or no. In any event you'd only be able to see their head and shoulders so not the same.

@ouch321 yeah, people have been taking pictures of their children since they got cameras, and that includes children playing without clothes in the bath and garden, as I'm sure you know.

You might not do it but it's not 'weird'. The person who posted that (you?) said they don't have children. For parents, it's adorable to see your children playing in the bath or in the paddling pool in the garden.

@Marssuri Good heavens that's horrific! I was oblivious to this & the COPINE scale & took the odd silly bum bum pic and wonky/fallen nappy snaps before camera phones. This thread has been a real eye opener.

In the context of the thread I think you're referring to, it was don't take a photo of your child's genital region and email to the boss of the nursery.

Op. If you genuinely think you might go to jail for having a photo of your child I would suggest professional support.

We all have different beliefs but only mine are the right ones!

I have been naked on beaches. Have you really never skinny dipped?

Or gone in holiday where spa's were no clothing allowed. There are plenty of places were full nudity is the norm.

In Iceland swimming pool we had to shower naked in changing rooms - no curtains.

We had to in school in the UK too.

I actually think it's really weird to have pictures, even completely innocent, on your phone. It's weird. I get it if they're playing in their bath covered with bubbles buy if you can actually see their genitals or bum it's just odd and so unnecessary. The only exception imo is the moment they are first born if you were lucky enough to capture those moments but they shouldn't be shown to anyone else.

Well, if it is a crime, then our local Tesco photo booth has taken a very calm attitude to me having it printed..

I have a photo of my naked 3yo ds who had taken off his clothes and fallen asleep in the heat of the afternoon in Lanzarote, and it is a picture of such innocence and peace, it is one of my most precious things.
I defy anyone to find anything salacious in it.