Lovely article on having children by Janice Turner

[Swoopy]

I so agree with her about the joy of it all and feeling you’re not really supposed to express it.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/874a2d65-8938-4433-a58b-adf3c62535e7?shareToken=b60694d08ea4051e62db552e0ff8288c

Motherhood can be pretty wonderful when you have a healthy child, good income, stable family life and secure housing. Absent any of those, it's much tougher.

But yes, shows like Motherland leave out the basic, elemental joy parents take in their children. My daughter's face is my favourite sight on the planet. (I'm feeling very affectionate because she came and sang to me this morning, then read me some poems, then stroked my hair because I was still sleepy. She's definitely earned an Easter egg.)

What I find difficult isn't really the children themselves. I love my kids, and I enjoy spending time with them. It's the constant, debilitating exhaustion of all the admin and logistics.

I'm working full time, managing a variety of childcare solutions (I work early mornings, which is really tricky to cover), then cooking (a UPF, salt, sugar free meal that children will actually eat, on a budget I can afford) clearing up, reading, sorting packed lunches after school, then washing hair and getting uniform sorted, and trying to get the younger kids in bed by 7.30 so I can help the older ones with homework (and then recording all this bloody reading, spellings, homework etc on the bloody apps) There's not one minute of my day unaccounted for, and I can't ever afford to get 10 minutes "behind".

I used to work part time which was great. But then I took a promotion (to a role I love) which has to be full time.

Life isn't currently set up for most people to be able to enjoy parenting much of the time.

If society needs more babies perhaps work on the males as well.

This exactly. The low birth rate gives me a grim satisfaction as it's clearly a massive "fuck you" to the patriarchy.

These governments wringing their collective hands just need to ask women why they are having fewer children. The answers would surprise no one here.

I struggle with this too (it usually comes from my mum, who ironically seemed to hate motherhood). I have a one year old and a three year old and my quality of life, general happiness and fulfilment is far, far below what I had before children. I feel very jealous when people talk about all this joy and I don't really feel it at all. It all just feels like relentless hard work.

My kids are the best thing I’ve ever done and it is really hard. We have enough money, my kids are healthy and happy, my dh does a really good share of everything, my job is flexible and well paid and it is still really really hard.

i hate that stuff that keeps doing the rounds about how you basically never see your kids once they turn 18, so you should spend all your time with them whilst you can. I just feel guilty and awful because I can’t do 24/7 mum to maximise the hours with them now, I’d go mad.

I wouldn’t encourage my dd to have kids and settle down unless she really wanted to. There’s enough people in the world having kids to keep the human race going, she doesn’t have to take up that baton unless it’s what she wants.

@DianaTaverner will look in to him further.

Pieces like that must be horrendously painful for women that wanted children but didn’t manage to, have a few friends who didn’t meet the right man and a couple who tried but never had any.

It’s a really lovely article and I agree. My job is important to me, I have a great partner but nothing has given me love and joy like my children do.

Motherhood now is painted only in the darkest hues.

That's so true - and even on here when you try and express the often small joys that it brings some posters sneer and belittle.

The best of times and the worst - does sum it up and like PP it often wasn't the kids making it worst - it was jobs, home work/support work money house move power moves by GP feeling constantly judged.

Happiest memories of my DMum curled up on sofa with her watching James bond movies or baking - best with my kids all piles up on sofa watching horrible histories.

It's not for everyone - and it is a lottery but for me one of the best things I ever did.

I read it completely differently - as yet another stick with which to beat childfree women who are "missing out" on "the joy" of children. No, we're not! We are very happy with our choices, and we don't feel we're missing out on anything. Plus it was sexist, because men don't seem to be on the receiving end of this nonsense.

I am happy for people who have children, if that is what they want - brilliant. But I am sick of my choices being disrespected and belittled. Wouldn't it be great if everyone was just able to do their own thing, whatever that is?

Motherhood and breast feeding are the two things I am unable to speak about amongst women without someone correcting me - yes, some women make different choices, yes some women were denied the choice and that makes them sad.

but why can I not talk about my experiences without filtering them through the offense or sadness of another woman first?

men wouldn’t do that

There is a very short Japanese poem which I first encountered during my PhD. I didn't understand it at the time, but later did and came to recall my PhD fondly. The same sentiment applies to the early days of childrearing IMO. I found it so hard, but long for it now.

I may live on until
I long for this time
In which I am so unhappy
And remember it fondly

I leapt on this article hungrily, hoping it would finally explain what the “joy” of having a child is. I still don’t understand. Cuddles in bed? Watching tv together? That’s… pleasant, but there are many better moments in my day than that - none of which involve my daughter. Is it me? Is it her? I’m endlessly baffled as to what the upside is of having a child that offsets the endless exhaustion, boredom and drudgery; I feel utterly bemused as to why anyone would have a second child. I’d love to know - what am I missing? What is the joy?

I promise you that I, and probably all here, don't give a toss whether you choose to have children or not. Why on earth would we?

@BeaRF75 sorry. My post above was a response to yours.

I have to say that I prefer the FT, data driven discussion of the drive to lower birth rates.

Why family-friendly policies don’t boost birth rates
https://on.ft.com/4ayECtl

Some of the stuff she says (e.g. this is mostly an economic decision to have less kids) is not particularly true.

i also don’t resonate with her experience and views of being a mother at all. Having young kids was the hardest time of my life for so many reasons. Only as my kids got older did I start to find some joy in it. I am not far enough in to know whether in the long term that will make up for the initial period.

At primary age DD told me she doesn’t want kids because it is too much work.

I can see how with more support and time it could feel differently. But for most families the reality of modern life with two working parents and minimal support from friends and family, it can be difficult..

i am pleased for her the she had a positive experience. She should be able to talk about that. But it is just that, one experience of motherhood.

I can point to moments. I can't describe fully how but it's like a feeling that extends past my whole body. Not physically but my emotions are too big to be in me. It is mixture of happiness contentment excitement love.

Watching my children learn to read is fantastically joyous. When you see things click into place it bloody magic. There is a huge range of things on a daily basis like that.

Tbh I find it quite annoying. I don't have children because it doesn't look fun and I think the same is true for my electively childfree friends. It's great it was good for her but it seems quite dismissive of the negative accounts and experiences people aren't deciding against kids just because Eva Wiseman is having a bad time of it (also why is she dismissing Eva Wiseman's experience!)

I didn't read it if dismissive but rather an differing view. You think mothering isn't much fun. That's how you have seen it. Here is a mother writing about the other side. Talking of the fun and joy.

Motherhood is complex. It's different things at different times. Why shouldn't a mother write about joy.

This is a good description and I have had very similar feelings- moments when I’m suddenly aware that everything is right, that I am experiencing something like perfect happiness. Not usually when we were doing something particularly exciting but more when we were all together doing something very ordinary- reading together on the sofa, say- and suddenly it feels as if the whole world is singing, a moment of pure contentment and love.

My kids are much older now but it still happens. Often connected to us all being together after even a short time apart- they’ll have been to a party and come home at midnight and we’re all in the kitchen chatting and having toast and suddenly- whoosh. A heightened experience, as if everything is right with the world in some profound and fundamental way.

I’m aware this is probably an oxytocin rush- maybe we’ve evolved to feel like this occasionally to make sure we carry on caring for our children even when day-to-day it’s hard and frustrating and perhaps boring sometimes. But the experience (for me) is very real and one which has been a regular feature of my life now for nearly two decades since having children.

My family is the same I have 20 1st cousins. My children have 2. On my mothers side, only me and one if my cousins has children. We are scattered all over the world, so it's not just a UK thing.

I think the problem sone peopke have with the article is thst motherhood is do intangible. The downsides are obvious. You see them in statistics, economics and from the lived experience of your friends, but describing how you feel as a mother is so intangible. I agree with how Janice felt, and I had an incredibly hard time when DS1 was a baby and toddler. But I do have lively memories of his and his brothers baby and toddler hood. I muss the weight of them on my lap. But it sounds stupid and not worth it to the voluntarily child free. Careers down the pan and can only go on holiday at the most expensive times of the year, but its worth it being cuddled by your toddler? It somehow is, but doesnt sound it. I also think that's fine if women choose not to have children. Society has produced this hostile environment and so they reap what they sow. We need to think of other ways to deal with the ageing population that doesn't involve haranguing women into having babies they don't want.

I didn’t really feel the same way as that article, I find being a mother very hard and I’m not sure it brings me much joy tbh (my Dd is a spectacular kid so it’s not her, it’s definitely a me problem). I sometimes look at her and feel a rush of love but mostly I feel like I’m preparing her for adulthood (with love obviously, I’m not as cold as I may sound). But I absolutely recognise that there are parents out there who love it and are good at it. But it isn’t inevitably joyful.

I remember reading a small study which suggested people with higher ACE’s struggled more with parenthood. I think for me it’s a combination of being an introvert and a not great childhood myself and the fact that I have to try really hard and self monitor to make sure I’m not repeating my parents behaviour.

I think more people are just realising that theres an opportunity cost to having kids and they aren’t willing to pay it. I don’t blame them frankly. i’m sure many of them would have made perfectly decent parents but not everyone gets immense joy out of being a parent, it’s a lifelong job, I think it’s probably better for individuals if they actively choose it.

I also think no-one really talks to men about their fertility either, how many women wanted families but just never met a man who was suitable and in the right frame of mind to start a family.

Malthus was proved wrong though. He would never have imagined we would be able to feed 8bn people ( we can, but war and greed , not lack of food and resources cause famine). The birthrate globally has been more or less stable since the 1970's. Population growth is being caused by people living longer. Once the boomer generation die off, global population will plummet. He did not see that.

I didn't really feel like it said anything new. I do have those moments of perfect joy.

But I agree it's very hard to explain without sounding like a nutter. It's completely intangible. I dont think Janice has done a very good job of explaining but that may not be her fault.

This exactly. It's a cliché I know but being mother is the hardest thing I've done but also one of the best. My DDs are (mostly) a joy and a wonder to me. I've loved seeing them grow up and they're great company and my life -and DH's and their grandparents' - is better for them.