Dd arrested. Again. Any police about?

[chaingangmam]

NC for obvious reasons. She's been arrested for theft. This is the second time in the last year. She's 17. Lives with her dad. She was arrested a significant distance away from home but still within our Force area. She's been taken to the main police station local to us.
Last time she refused a solicitor and she ended up with some kind of community disposal where she worked with the youth offending team.
Now she's been arrested again and is likely to be dealt with more severely which is what she needs. I don't want to go into all the ins and outs but she has mental health issues and a long history of problems with school suspensions, threatened expulsions, failed fresh starts. I'm doing everything in my power to get her the help she needs but she regularly disowns me so it's hard to get her to engage.

What is likely to happen this time? Will she be kept at the police station all night? I'm assuming so. Her dad is all for letting a duty social worker attend the police station instead of him. Is that a thing? It will be tomorrow now anyway and he's not sure he'll be available. Can parents refuse to attend?! I wouldn't have thought so. Ive told the arresting officer she's to have a solicitor this time. She freely admitted it last time and this time was caught red handed having stolen from more than one store.

Bit frazzled and upset so apologies if not making sense.
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@NCForQuestions this is her second arrest for theft. She had a community disposal order last time and worked with the youth offending team. She freely admitted it last time. Couldn't really deny it anyway as she was on cctv.

The waiting to hear something is torment. I've not heard anything from anyone. I've got that feeling that she'll end up with another slapped wrist and nothing will change. So many things have happened where the consequences have been zilch.

If she's no commented her way through the interview what happens?

Hi OP, I remember you from your other threads and am sorry to hear these issues are still ongoing.

If she has no commented her way through then what happens really depends on what other evidence they have. If they have enough evidence to prove she has committed the crime anyway then in theory she will receive a court date.

The consequences will depend on a few things, one of the main ones being the value of the things she has stolen, I believe the lower limit for the system is £200, so if it was more than that she should be taken to court. The fact she has previous for this now & that clearly the slap on the wrist from last time hasn’t been a deterrent will make them much more likely to come down hard this time (will be an aggravating factor for sentencing) as it presents now as an escalating pattern of crime, and if she is found guilty then the fact she “no commented” through her interview is also an aggravating factor for sentencing.

In theory in court she could be looking at up to 12 months imprisonment and/or an unlimited fine.

@Mrsttcno1 do you work in the police or legal sector? The custody sergeant said she'd be referred to youth offending again but the arresting officer said she wouldn't. I wish they'd keep things straight when they do give snippets of information.

@chaingangmam So I have a law degree, trained, and I now work in really quite a versatile role which is centred around assisting vulnerable people in a range of situations be that young people like your daughter, older adults finding work etc. So I have worked with people who have gone through a similar process before. Unfortunately there isn’t a clear cut answer as to exactly what will happen from here, the first step for her age is usually the referral orders (which it sounds as though she’s already done), that is essentially an order for something like community service to “make up” for what they have done.

It sounds as though the referral order is what happened last time and from your last reply it sounds like what they may push for now is a Youth Rehabilitation Order. These are basically a community sentence and can be things like a requirement to do unpaid work, an imposed curfew so having to be in the house by x time, if she is struggling with her mental health then they could impose counselling sessions which she must attend, just a few examples! If she breaks any of the rules they set then they would bring her back to court and she could at that point then be looking at a custodial sentence. X

@chaingangmam if she no comments the interview and the police have enough evidence to charge her, she'll have to be put before a court for trial (unless she pleads guilty before then). Youth offending may still be involved to support her and you at court and in the aftermath but they can't make the charges go away.

If there is insufficient evidence, it won't go anywhere.

If she admits it, the police have a range of disposal options open, up to and including court but it'll depend on lots of factors including the value of the goods, her actions, whether she's willing and able to work with the youth offending team again, and her previous offending history including times she's not been charged before.

I'm an ex copper.

@Mrsttcno1 you must know that no 17yo is going to prison for a second shoplifting offence for first time non-compliance with a YRO?

Prisons are quite literally full to bursting and are releasing non-violent prisoners early to make space. She isn't going anywhere near a YOI unless she really ups the ante.

OP, a custodial sentence is vanishingly unlikely in the current climate for theft offences. The system tries very very hard to divert young people away from prison for years so don't give that a thought right now.

Thank you.
19 hours now since she was apprehended. It's appalling to be kept in the dark like this.

@chaingangmam They can initially hold her for up to 24hrs from the time she was booked into custody. Highly unlikely that they'll justify holding her for longer.

I'm afraid that most of the time is spent waiting. Waiting for her rest period to finish to allow her to sleep /rest. Her times to eat and drink. Shower if she wants it.

Waiting for the appropriate adult to to turn up, for the solicitor to turn up, for them to meet with her, for disclosure to be done, then the interview which probably won't actually last that long, then the decision on charge and bail.

Add in all the faffing about to get an AA for her in the first place, then SS actually making someone available and the delays are huge.

There's probably bugger all for them to update you on other than whether or not she's been interviewed.

As neither parent is acting as AA, you'll find most updates will be provided to the social worker in your absence. You can ring custody and ask if she'll speak to you but remember the call will be monitored.

They were interviewing her just after 1030 this morning so it's been ages. I'm not a patient person!

@lljkk

Also agree it's good advice.

She's been released on bail to her dad's but is refusing to go there. He wasn't there when she was dropped off. She's out with friends in the nearest city. She's got a court date in June. She's going to plead insanity due to her mental health but she told the police exactly why and what she did and admitted everything so I'm not sure what she expects will happen or how she's going to prove she's insane. She talked to her solicitor for a long time and says the solicitor is fully on board with using her mental health as a defence. .

Hi OP,

I think it would be really worth reading this guy's book:

https://thesecretbarrister.com/

It explains how the courts work and that would be really useful to understand before you have to engage with one.

Guy?

No point in reading the secret barrister book as he deals nearly always with crown court which this will not go near.

Will your Dd be over 18 at the court date OP? If so she will be dealt with in the adult court, if not she will go to the youth court. Very different outcomes.

i am both an adult and a youth magistrate so know about both. I suspect that when she last got caught she didn’t go to court at all but was dealt with as an out of court disposal which is available to the police if she admitted it at the time which you say she did.

if she didn’t go to court the last time then this would be her first conviction. If it youth court and she pleads guilty then there are only two options open to the bench for a first offence with a guilty plea, a referral order or custody. She is exceedingly unlikely to go to custody.

if it is adult court then depending on the amounts involved then she is likely to be fined or have a community order. Again custody is extremely unlikely.

Hopefully she will still be under 18 at the court date, if not I would contact the court and ask for a date before her birthday for this reason . Youth sentencing is a lot more proactive and also the conviction will fall off her record a lot quicker. Sentencing is based on the date of conviction not date of offence so this is important.

@chaingangmam I'm afraid your daughter is talking out of her arse.

Insanity as a plea is really only used for extremely serious offences like murder, because if found to be not guilty due to insanity (a defect of the mind) she'll then be subject to some sort of order around mental health like a hospital order. It is also possible to get an absolute discharge, but I highly doubt the duty solicitor is agreeing to run with a complex legal defence which will require her to undergo multiple assessments of her psychological state and have the reports produced at court. For a basic shoplifting aged 17 for their first appearance in court.

They may use it in an attempt to obtain mitigation for sentencing but that's not unusual.

Your daughter may also be in breach of her bail conditions. Do you know the exact wording of the bail conditions?

Thank you. She will still be 17 on the court date. I assume her insanity plea will go nowhere? It was an out of court disposal last time and she worked with YOT. No court at all.
What would a referral order involve?

@NCForQuestions thank you. I don't know the exact working because nobody has contacted either me or her dad. She was just dropped off at his house. I've phoned 101 and asked for an update but been told that it's now the officer in charge not the custody Sgt so I have to wait for the officer to get back to me which is usually the other side of never in my experience.
She talks out of her arse a lot. She lies with impunity about anything and everything.

A referral order seems to be what she'll get if she pleads guilty: https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/pronouncement-cards/card/referral-order/

It will last 3-12 months, depending on the courts decision, and they may also order the parents to attend the panel as part of it.

This is the kind of thing it entails: https://www.devon.gov.uk/educationandfamilies/young-people/youth-justice-service/what-happens-if-a-young-person-goes-to-court/referral-order/

I wonder if she found the out of court disposal with the youth offending service helpful before. This might be a chance to do a bit more work with them on a short referral order.
Hopefully you can make the court date. I don’t think being left to it in the justice system has the great deterrent impact other posters are suggesting.

@NCForQuestions thanks for that information, it's helpful to know. Last time she worked with YOT and at the end wrote a letter as part of restorative justice then was straight back thieving again 😡 Her so called friends are stealing too and I don't think she's got one decent and honest friend.
Tonight she is very defiant and refusing to go home so the police will end up picking her up. She's threatened to kick off if they do. She's really not helping herself at all but no pleading from me is making the slightest bit of difference.

If you're phoning her, and she's out and about and giving you shit, leave her to it. It sounds as though she needs to learn a few lessons the hard way. She's far from the first or the last to think bail conditions are meaningless... But she'll soon find out, if she's in breach, but we don't know whether she is or not until you get told the actual wording.

Her dad isn't stepping up by the sounds of it, but there's not much you can do about that.

OP no advice, sorry, just a friendly wave. It all sounds gut-wrenching. Miserable and bewildering and infuriating (where the father is concerned), and similar things more.

You sound strong, but I wish you strength just in case. And levity somewhere, somehow.

Her dad is washing his hands of her. I'm trying to please with both of them to compromise but neither is interested.
I've endured years of abuse from both of them and wouldn't normally speak to him at all but am doing so to try and help Dd. I'm now stuck in the middle of two mules who won't budge. It's going to end with the police out looking for her tonight again. A regular occurrence. Social services keep saying there's no need for their involvement but keep contacting me to say the police have sent another referral to them. In the weeks since they said no need for their services there have been at least 5 new referrals made by the police and/or ambulance service for Dd.
Lockdown or rather the lifting of lockdown was the straw that broke the camel's back for Dd. She's not been right since. Running away, ganse accusations of abuse, alcohol, drugs, truancy, theft, shoplifting, violence towards me, her siblings, her dad, friends, ex friends. She desperately needs help but won't engage beyond the initial session with people.

She's refusing to go home and won't say where she is except to say the police won't find her. She's not helping herself here at all. Says no one ever helps her but she doesn't listen to any advice or take up any help offered. I'm wasting my breath but at least I know and she knows that I've tried.