VAT on fees and schools wasting money

[Cinnamonswirled]

It seems as though the fees are likely to go up by 15%.

But is anyone else frustrated by how much their children’s schools seem to be spending on unnecessary things like never ending building programmes, ever-changing branding and gimmicky roles for staff?

It all seems a bit tone deaf in the current climate.

Does anyone else feel this?

What's a gimmicky role?

I am not a customer. I am a teacher.

(sorry for calling you a troll @wubwubwub )

@wubwubwub maybe the OP isn't a parent?

Going forward though it will make sense to invest in buildings etc, because they will be able to claim back VAT on expenditure. Quid pro quo.

Haha, cross post @Cinnamonswirled

The next time you see a Senior Leader in an independent school, ask them how much teaching they do (and then check their salary on the charity commission). They are expensive.

And there are so many gimmicky roles (AI leads; well-being heads that turn out not to even be Designated Safeguarding Leads; Sustainability Leads … I can’t say much more, but look at any staff roll in the private sector and they are full of this nonsense).

I agree. But, in that case, do it well.

We are watching inexperienced senior leaders spending £££ £££s on buildings and equipment that are not fit for purpose. And there is no accountability for this.

Only the teachers (and students) in the appallingly constructed classrooms that are quickly knocked up, know how unfit for purpose they are.

This is known across the sector. An influx of expensive but inexperienced school leaders make expensive, expensive mistakes with fee payers money. And there is no accountability for it.

What’s the point in claiming back your VAT on capital expenditure which will need to be spent again on correcting past mistakes?

This, OP. If you are so dissatisfied with any service or corporate behaviour, provided by any organisation, surely you would vote with your feet?

There has been no fire & rehire in the school I know. The teaching staff are mostly of long tenure and those who join to replace retiring staff seem to stay. One recent joiner has 17 years working in a local grammar school. He is well known in the community.

Obviously I have no experience of other schools' policies, but perhaps you should find a better, more ethical school.

@Meadowfinch These issues are sector-wide.

Astonishing that parents can be so sensitive to fee increases, yet not ask questions about the accounts.

So many posts here claiming intimidate knowledge of private schools - they are all fine, battening down the hatches and treating staff well. And yet posters won’t have read the accounts.

One thing that I was surprised at was when we were looking at sixth forms (all part of schools, they just had an intake in sixth form too), that they produced these glossy brochures - at least 24 pages full of photos and stats etc. Very nice. But these schools only admitted 4-14 kids in to sixth form! At one in particular they also put out loads of lovely cakes and had staff serving coffee.
These were highly selective schools - they didn't need to go to such lengths to recruit students, especially for just two years worth of fees. I did come away thinking it was a waste of money, and if they overspent it there, where else - I wondered how much they did to recruit for Y7, though at least they'd have more years of fees.
But they do need bums on seats, and need to provide the extra bells and whistles I suppose. I guess these things are relatively small expenses compared to the fees they bring in (and that's more than £8,500 a term here, and that's middling).

I agree @mondaytosunday

Marketing and hospitality are really important.

But their marketing budgets and staff just seem to get bigger and bigger with endless rebranding and waste - food waste, plastic waste. Screens up everywhere with film montages of children having fake fun. Drones and video campaigns. Kids can’t just run a race. They need to be filmed doing it by drone. Questions around who gets the contracts (and how much are they charging).

They get the idea that marketing brings in fees, but their budgets for this shouldn’t be limitless or ongoing without review.

Parents should challenge it. The schools will listen to parents.

If VAT on fees comes in, indie schools will have to decide whether to absorb the costs by making internal changes or increase fees.

If they aim to absorb them, their offer may resemble something more aligned with state schools in terms of teacher: pupil ratio and the extracurricular / sports coaching offer.

I live in an area where most secondary schools have high progress 8 scores yet lots of parents privately educate for 'networking reasons'. They (not incorrectly) believe that their children will have very good connections to pull upon throughout life - be that a foot in the door of a great employer, barrister/medic friends recommending who to 'use' when needed. I am not sure slight increases in class sizes or the loss of fencing will put these families off

If you are so unhappy at your overpaid job as a teacher at an independent school why don't you leave to teach in the state sector then?

On one hand you are saying the salaries have been increased too much and then on the other saying the contracts aren't good enough. Vote with your feet then.

@Spirallingdownwards I don't think you've understood the OP. Where has it been said that private sector teachers are overpaid? I think many would be shocked to learn that many schools have packages that don't match the state sector.

Management salaries have been increasing whilst teaching colleagues are subject to 'consultations' which result in worse packages. I think many staff will be voting with their feet but in the meantime, parents need to be made aware and staff are often bound by confidentially clauses.

Most teachers in the independent sector earn less than the maintained sector @Spirallingdownwards

Only the top jobs exceed inflation and outstrip the maintained sector.

I am neither unhappy nor averse to working in the maintained sector (where I have spent much of my career), by the way.

I am, however, perplexed as to why parents don’t challenge private schools on how they spend fee income. And they really don’t. Read this thread - it doesn’t seem to occur to anyone to look at their school’s finances!

@Brainworm vat isn't an increase in fees, it's a tax on the customer. Why would/ should schools absorb it?

@Cinnamonswirled I am beginning to think we are at the same establishment 😆

I don't think they are. The OP referred to above inflation increases.

@Cinnamonswirled the teachers at my son's school were well paid and definitely higher than in the public sector (although I appreciate that isn't the case everywhere).

The schools are businesses and need to compete in a world where everyone keeps saying they are businesses and fees should be subject to VAT. Therefore they feel they need to offer bells and whistles etc to attract customers.

Customers/parents aren't complaining because I very much suspect in most cases they are happy with the service they are receiving and feel the cost is worth the outlay if their alternative is a state sector they have already rejected.

As you say their length of custom is for a fixed time and therefore they are prepared to take the hit to ensure their kids get the education they want for them.

Whilst they may think do we need to rebrand and spend that money they probably think the same thing about their banks and don't switch accounts, their supermarkets and a whole variety of other companies but use them if they still prefer them over what else is available. In many cases they are relieved and happy their child has obtained a place in a competitive setting so are happy to pay the "going rate" to be there.

Pay in the independent sector has radically changed in the last 6 / 7 years @Spirallingdownwards

Heads salaries are up. Teacher salaries are stagnant.

I wish parents would start asking questions about the consultancy used by all schools in the independent sector.

I actually have a bit of an overview of the sector because of my job.

It is the same story everywhere @Sewingmachine1 .

Parents are worried about VAT, but their fees were going up before that. They need to challenge their schools on spending.

Why would they though? If they are getting what they pay for at a price they are happy to pay? They perceive they are. If you feel underpaid and undervalued because you think money is being wasted on costs and overheads then it is for you to choose to leave.

To survive. If parents can't/won't pay more than they are currently paying, and leave, many indies will have to close.

When reference is made to better pay for teachers in independent schools, does this include adjustments for having/not having the 23% employer pension contribution that is provided in state schools?

I'm not sure how parents would challenge a school on its finances. They wouldnt have an overview really and there isn't much mechanism other than not chosing that school and picking somewhere they feel is better value.