Can the cynics explain this (mediums)

[Disturbia81]

I've always been sceptical of them and know there are a lot of charlatans.
But have heard stories from people over the years who wouldn't lie. But remained cynical

A friend and I went to a group one, there were about 150 people there. He spoke to 10.
We used fake names on the booking so no research could be done on us.
Didn't talk about anything while there.

Anyway he mentioned a surname that had come to him, it was her brothers so she put her hand up. Then he got all her family names, relationships between them, specific funny things said, how he died, even how he looked when he was found etc.
She was in shock but got so much comfort knowing her was with her still.

He couldn't have known any of this.
I want to believe but also want to see if anyone can logically explain it?

But one of you must have used a real debit or credit card?

@CinnabarRed I'm on repeat here 😂
I used paypal. Even if my name was on drink transaction etc.. My friend paid for nothing.

People massively over estimate their own uniqueness. That means they interpret a whole bunch of vague generalisations as specific to them.

Especially an audience who have paid to see a ‘psychic’. They’re already predisposed to at least wanting it to not be a con.

then there’s the amplifying effect of being in a crowd.

But you’re not going to be convinced by any amount of evidence that explains this stuff. So why not just admit that you do really want to believe that dead loved ones are waiting for you to pay to see a psychic so they can give you weird messages.

I’m reading a book at the moment about a kingdom where people without magic powers are killed. The main character has no magic powers so her dad has trained her to use cold reading techniques to present herself as a ‘psychic’ to fool the authorities. There’s a bit where she’s forced to read people and she reflects that if she’d known how into this stuff people would be, she could have been taking it in as a paid performer.

Another one not reading my posts.. so you're getting it wrong in every sense.

Just because people aren’t responding the way you want them to (with validation that you can believe), it doesn’t mean we don’t understand your posts.

You are clearly determined to believe this psychic is real. That’s fine. It is ok to admit that you do really want to believe in it.

Why do non-believers get so animated and upset when they're challenged?

They don’t. And they haven’t on this thread. You’ve been “pissing yourself laughing” and making unpleasant comments about sceptics’ lack of logic and thinking.

…and how they're all very superior and scientific.

That gives away your animosity.

But saying 'there's no proof therefore I am right' isn't in keeping with the scientific method.

‘I am right’ is a misrepresentation of ‘there is no worthwhile evidence of communication with the dead, so such an unlikely claim should be disbelieved until it is properly proven’. Which you go on to say is your position. So there’s no point in your arguing that the reality of small talk with the dead is not disproven. If people want to claim fantastic powers they must prove it.

The earth is not flat. But flat earthers say say there is some evidence for what they believe, as you do for mediumship. My conclusion is that there’s no reliable evidence for a flat earth or for conversations with dead people. Both should be disbelieved.

Nope there's been loads of good contributions on both sides. I was talking specifically to you and one other
I don't want to believe, I wanted to explore explanations
So if you're saying incorrect things like "they make vague generalisations" when I've said countless times that it was very specific to each person, name wise and then info wise. Then I'm going to respond aren't I? Because I'm looking for explanations to what actually happened in that room, not a whole different situation
I like being sceptical and level headed. If I didn't then I wouldn't have started this thread and just blindly accepted it instead.
Maybe learn to read posts properly.

So the researcher got your name from PayPal and searched for you on social media to see which friends/family you might bring with you. Found your friend, found her name and names of relatives and then memorised her face. Delighted when he spotted her in the audience and reeled off all the info he had memorised. I will say that mediums need really good memories, that is their true talent.

My facebook is totally locked down.
As is hers.

Look, you were adamant he couldn’t have got any information from your payment method because you used a burner email and PayPal. But you were mistaken. I’ve told you when you pay by PayPal (and Apple) the business gets to see your personal details including your real name associated with your bank account attached to PayPal/Apple. The website insists on either of these payment methods, they really don’t want people paying on the door, they make that clear - I wonder why? Unless there’s only a few seats left of course and then the imperative to make money takes over and they allow it - a handful of unknowns in an audience of 150 probably won’t matter.

‘Mediums’ will employ a number of research methods and also use all the other methods PPs have already covered. Shotgunning, Barnum, Rainbow, Cold/Warm reading. You’re shoring up your friend’s experience with the other 10 people you claim all had the same experience of very specific information. It’s unlikely all ten of them had their ticket paid for by someone else on a burner email isn’t it? Using research in combination with the techniques mentioned increases the chances of getting a good hit rate.

Death certificates, coroner reports, inquests etc - are all public records, available to anyone. You also confirmed she didn’t tell you anything as it was too raw, so you only have her say so that he got all the information correct. And she desperately wants to believe, that is clear from the text msg you posted. So her confirmation bias will have been in overdrive as soon as he started talking to her.

‘Mediums’ will have pre-prepared ‘readings’ before they start and they might not always be absolutely sure that person is either there or will engage. So they fish…..

“Anyway he mentioned a surname that had come to him, it was her brothers so she put her hand up”.

“He just "saw" people stood by people and then said the name to the person sat there”

So which one was it? Because it can’t be both.
You say he ‘saw’ people standing next to the audience members - if that was true why would he have to have her put her hand up to confirm her surname? He would have been able to tell her, surely?

“She was in shock but got so much comfort knowing he was with her still”

This is the bit that angers me the most. Profiting, hugely, from grieving people. Look at this particular persons website and there’s a whole section on ‘Support With Grief’. As if they care. They know exactly who their target audience is. Grief vampires.

I said that people have this psychological habit of hearing pretty generalised information as if it is specific. It is a well-researched phenomenon called the Barnum effect. As people have repeatedly told you.

You are no more immune to this than the rest of the population. It means that you will remember it as really specific information to each person. You saw people react to statements that could apply to many people and really believe they were unique insights into their lives.

There’s a clustering illusion that amplifies this. And bucketloads of confirmation bias.

There are other psychological effects related to this happening in a group situation (the bandwagon effect) that demonstrably do affect how individuals react to a situation. in this case, the bandwagon is being overwhelmed by the accuracy of the information.

If it was genuinely really specific information. Then the more underhand researching the audience members tactics explain that.

My facebook is totally locked down.
As is hers.

A lovely MNer on here demonstrated this once. She found (just from MN posts) lots of personal information about people. People who swore everything was 'locked down'. We are unreliable witnesses. In this case both you and your friend are talking about memories of an event (very unreliable typically) and your own personal data (also typically very unreliable).

You know there's a million dollar prize for anyone who can prove any of this exists under lab conditions. If you're that sure, find the bloke and he can become a millionaire. The fact that he works in the field and isn't one, instead shilling people on nights out... is evidence in itself.

This all makes sense and is a good post, thankyou.
If they had her name
But they had no way of knowing her name.

He used both methods as I said, the seeing someone stood by a chair then also a name coming to him.
He reeled off all her family names in quick succession and their relationships, in jokes etc. Death stuff. All correct.

I understand they might go as far as looking at reports and having someone on the inside (police) etc
But he had no way of knowing she was going there.

Derren Brown performs this sort of trick brilliantly, so yes I’m very sceptical.

True. Think I will always remain sceptical

She got a lot of comfort from it and it's helped her though, so when I see the effect it's had it's hard to think too badly about it when paying £12 once in a blue moon.

I am going merely out of curiosity. My ds paid for my ticket in cash. They have my first name which is very unusual but nothing else. I have no social media. I don't come up on Google either in maiden or married name. I have no family and 1 friend!!

I have no social media.

Says she on MN, literally SM which has been as leaky as a sieve.

Unreliable witnesses.

From your OP…

A friend and I went to a group one, there were about 150 people there. He spoke to 10.
We used fake names on the booking so no research could be done on us.
Didn't talk about anything while there

How did your friend (as I have said before, clearly a believer based on her text msg) know about the show?

Did this ‘medium’ put out a Facebook notification for the venue, or maybe the venue itself advertised that he was coming soon. Did your friend ‘like’ the post? Or maybe he was more obvious than that and actually asked in the FB ‘Who’s coming to my show?’.

I know you want to believe that he couldn’t possibly have known she was going to be there, like you initially believed he couldn’t have known who you were because of your burner email and fake name, before you learnt PayPal would have given him your actual name, but he did know. Without the full details I can’t give you the definitive answer but I know there is one simply because what can’t have happened is, he can’t have convened with the dead.

Your friend wanted to believe him, so she did. And you want to believe your friend, so no amount of logical explanations and knowledge of how these people operate, is going to persuade you otherwise. If a completely dispassionate, skeptical, observer had been present I have no doubt they would have spotted what you were unable to.

it's hard to think too badly about it when paying £12 once in a blue moon

Hmmm, £12 of your money, imagine how all those £12s add up……

What I don't understand about all these 'mediums' is that in all these conversations with the dead, not one of the deceased seems to be able to use the name of the person they want to speak to.
" I have a message for someone with an S in their name. blah blah blah"

Maybe because he's a real medium and had a good reading on your friend on this particular day

Mumsnet is not the place to ask about this. Everyone is so close minded and thinks they're on a superior intellectual plane for not believing. I actually think it's the opposite.

Someone above saying you can't communicate with the dead but there's no brain activity after you die....had to laugh at that comment!! Well I'm glad we cleared that up Susan 😂

Yes there are plenty of charlatans, but many real too. Watch Matt Fraser or Tyler Henry on YouTube. Probably 2 of the best mediums in the world. I find it fascinating

Cold reading is such a lazy and over used excuse for this. Cold reading is extremely obvious when it's done - you would know

Well when they say something like that - someone with an S in their name, for example - it's usually because it's a cold reading. I've been to a medium in a large audience and he knew the exact person the message was for every time. No one needed to put their hand up

Real mediums don't hear the dead in clear conversational clarity. It's a bit naive to think that

They have to interpret images, or symbols or feeling etc. Depends on how their gift works, they are all different

How on earth did she get that job? If I didn't have an ethical problem with fake psychics I would love to do that - would suit my nosy cow tendencies perfectly!

I mean for the individual.

No I am open to reasoned posts! As long as they are based on what I've said. As I said I want replies like this, the liking his post is a good suggestion, she could well have done this.
Just that her profile is locked down, her profile pic isn't of her.
So how did he know this random post liker was coming and he could barely see her at the back of the room, and didn't know what she looked like.
I'm not wanting to blindly believe it hence all my questioning.