Can the cynics explain this (mediums)

[Disturbia81]

I've always been sceptical of them and know there are a lot of charlatans.
But have heard stories from people over the years who wouldn't lie. But remained cynical

A friend and I went to a group one, there were about 150 people there. He spoke to 10.
We used fake names on the booking so no research could be done on us.
Didn't talk about anything while there.

Anyway he mentioned a surname that had come to him, it was her brothers so she put her hand up. Then he got all her family names, relationships between them, specific funny things said, how he died, even how he looked when he was found etc.
She was in shock but got so much comfort knowing her was with her still.

He couldn't have known any of this.
I want to believe but also want to see if anyone can logically explain it?

I’m assuming you paid for these tickets somehow? Bank card/transfer will have your name.

A very popular guy from the local area has a lady that works for him full time. She has Facebook page called “Cambridge City Life” etc and she literally adds everyone! She then keeps up with gossip.

When someone books with him, he and her chat through everything she knows about them (as she is “friends” on Facebook with them and often all their family members)!

I would imagine being contacted by the dead would be upsetting and more of a curse than a blessing. If someone had this 'gift' they wouldn't need someone to raise their hand as they would be guided by the dead. I find it hard to believe that they would hold shows/meetings night after night taking people's money.

If mediums could talk to the dead then Keith Bennet's body would have been found.

We would know what happened to missing children.

Exactly.Also...
@ComtesseDeSpair
Science is rigorous (rightly so) requiring reproducibility under the same test conditions. If you cannot measure presence as PP said you must measure outcome.
But how can you guarantee that?
Let's say I have the ability to call, at random a roomful of people. I can ask them any question but how would I know whether they can answer?
If you change people to some supernatural entity - same issue. Establishing contact and getting a relevant answer are two separate things. But only one is a measurable outcome.

Logically, you cannot prove non-existence. So those who say 'it does not exist because it is unproven' are the ones being unscientific.

FWIW I believe that everyone who seeks publicity is fake. So all those TV mediums. I think there are people with real abilities. But they're rare and, unlike fakes, make themselves difficult to find unless you really need them.

The one common thing that links all attendees of an event like this is the belief that the human body has a spirit/soul and that there's an afterlife, this means that you are already attending with a touch of gullibility and that this can be exploited by charlatans who, as PPs have already said, provide you with information that may appear specific is still vacuous and inconsequential

People who claim anything are the ones to show that it’s true. There’s no onus on sceptics to disprove ludicrous claims to be able to talk to the dead. No medium has ever proved such an ability.

What you say about presence and answers makes no sense. Mediums make contact with the dead. If the dead will never say anything that shows their existence and can be checked - like the bank account number where their hidden money is or the unguessable password to a computer file - then there’s no reason to accept any utterly implausible claim of superpowers.

Eh? You're the one not making any sense.
Forget the spirit for a moment. Think of a living person. You don't know what any other person can and cannot remember. Say that someone called me up purporting to be a loved one but with their voice disguised. How do I make them verify their identity?

I wouldn't be asking about secret bank accounts or 'unguessable' file passwords. Because people don't generally remember account numbers or have secret files lying around. I actually laughed at that last one as a techie 😂

Furthermore, anything that can be externally verified can also be obtained by a third party. I can never guarantee its safety. Bank account numbers for example.

What I WOULD be asking is something that only I and they know. Or a combination of things. Either way, unless I arranged a code word in advance I have no way of proving someone else's identity in a way that's scientific enough for a third party to accept as proof.

Morally there's no onus on anybody to prove anything. Anybody can believe what they like. However, logically, you cannot prove a negative claim.
https://www.qcc.cuny.edu/socialSciences/ppecorino/PHIL_of_RELIGION_TEXT/CHAPTER_5_ARGUMENTS_EXPERIENCE/Burden-of-Proof.htm#:~:text=The%20source%20of%20the%20fallacy,of%20all%20things%20(omniscience).

That is also why nobody has written a conclusive scientific paper stating 'there are no psychics', ok no more research needed everyone go home.

BTW I have not seen anything that convinces me of mediums, psychics etc being real. But this is not enough for me to state categorically that they do not exist. Because logic. No idea how your meme is relevant either you're as bad with memes as you are with logical reasoning.

I remember years ago watching a TV show where they set up a fake ‘psychic medium’ and got random people off the street in for readings.

The fake psychic was reading the same script to every person who went in and every single one came out raving about how accurate it all was.

My Mum is really big into all this stuff and I went with her to a show of a relatively famous medium years ago and it was very, very sad how desperate the people around us were for readings, they were putting their hands up every single time he ‘connected’ with someone. They were easy pickings and it really opened my eyes.

I reckon he got into her facebook page.

Does that mention how he died and his last words.

That is - I’m sorry - obvious rubbish.

People verify their identity by confirming very specific facts given without hedging. That’s exactly what mediums don’t do.

And you work in tech but you don’t think anyone remembers passwords? Really? No one remembers their log-ins, phone codes or card PINs? Pfft.

It’s not about proving a negative. It’s about believing in the incredible without any proper reason to do so.

The meme was the product of a fat finger.

You didn't say 'passwords' though. You said 'unguessable password to a computer file' which was why I pissed myself laughing. You skirted around the question as to who has these lying around and are now talking about logins etc.. why didn't you say that in the first place?
Of course people remember things they need to log in but.... applying brain again... do you happen to keep your dead relatives' phones lying around? Do you think banks keep dead peoples' accounts around forever so a medium can log in?

I don't think there is ANY conclusive way to scientifically prove that someone can talk to the dead. And even if someone did 'provide' these things, you cannot prove that the medium didn't have them already anyway.

As a scientific thinker, I have not seen any evidence to support belief . However one cannot logically prove a negative claim. Of course, my stand isn't just pure logic, otherwise someone could say 'I believe purple humans exist and you can't prove otherwise'. But there have been many, many purported occurrences of supernatural activity, I can't say for sure that all of them are fake.
Therefore my answer can never be 'these things don't exist'. It must always be 'I don't know'. What I said about people being difficult to find etc is a pet theory but really. I don't know. And that's OK.

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/comments/27yxgi/cmvghosts_dont_exist/

This is a Reddit thread where people explain the arguments quite well for ghosts.

Your stand is 'they don't exist' mine is 'I don't know', not 'they definitely do'. There's a difference.

You'll get splinters doing that

Thanks for your extremely intelligent contribution ... look out people, big brain energy coming through.

' I don't know' is an acceptable answer by the way. If you can prove something conclusively, feel free to write a scientific paper on it and win an award or something.

The logical conclusion of saying that you don’t know and so you believe there’s a possibility that something exists is that you must accept the possible existence of every single deity and supernatural being which has ever been worshipped or experienced by a human in any culture throughout history, because somebody has been convinced of their existence and attributed some activity to them.

Personally I can’t suspend disbelief sufficiently to try to convince myself that Anubis and Zeus genuinely might exist simply because I can’t prove they don’t. I have no qualms in saying that I absolutely know they do not exist. Just like mediums and psychics.

@Disturbia81 i agree, a good cold reading is an impressive experience. I’ve seen Derren Brown do it live - the accuracy and specificity of his reading was extraordinary. Only he’s clear he’s got no psychic gift. That’s how all these so called psychics and mediums do it, just with different levels of skill.

I know, 100%, that they aren’t genuine because of the James Randi prize. There’s $1million available to any psychic who can perform an act which someone claiming no special powers can’t replicate. It’s been available since the 1970s and is still unclaimed. I reckon all these people touring the country in down market venues would quite like a million quid, don’t you? So why hasn’t anyone been able to meet the standard?

If some people eg derren brown are so good at faking being a medium, why don’t they get the prize? Do they have to be able to tell someone specific something specific or something? Because I’ve seen derren brown do it and it’s amazing, so couldn’t he just do it and get the prize? How would the prize givers be able to tell someone is genuine when there’s people so good at faking it?

@Cjhu the point is that the people claiming a gift can’t do anything that the people not claiming a gift can’t also do. DB could claim to be a psychic but another good cold reader would be able to do whatever he does. Fortunately there are enough people with morals who can be a counter point, I guess.

I'm neither a believer or skeptic, but you don't need a brain in the spiritual world. It's where your soul goes. It's not a physical world.

"there are people with real abilities. But they're rare and, unlike fakes, make themselves difficult to find unless you really need them."

If they are genuine they would surely phone you just when you needed them with the information you needed.

"Demons can masquerade as our loved ones"

I've heard that before but why would your god let them?

The whole demons thing was a mistake by the church as there's no way to make it make sense. Jesus supposedly killed some demons so there can't be a reason for letting them do what they like.

Unless god died or moved on to some other universe?

Saw one on TV, he wrote a letter individually to a group of students. They were so upset, some accused him of reading their diaries. After a bit he got them to exchange their letters. They were all the same. He said there's no such thing as psychics.

I used to have very firm beliefs about people’s spirits still being around after they die. I saw a fair few mediums over the years. Until I saw my Dad pass away. For some reason I suddenly hugely doubted my previous beliefs and now think that when you die that’s it, nothing more.

Although when I was about 24 I went to see a medium. I was looking for reassurance about my love life. The guy who I was desperate for it to work with was tall, dark haired, athletic build, my own age and this woman told me that my next relationship would be with someone a fair bit older, blonde, muscular who drove a silver car. Well, she was right 🤷🏼‍♀️

An unguessable password is one that isn’t your date of birth, wedding anniversary, “password”, 12345, 99999, your cat’s name etc. I think it was entirely obvious what was meant. I doubt you ‘pissed yourself’ laughing or laughed at all.

Plenty of people know their partner’s phone code or card PIN or home computer password. Or code for a burglar alarm. And so on.

Of course a psychic might know these things in one case or another. But if they could reliably give these sorts of details for lots of unconnected people it would at least present some credence to a claim to hear the voices of the dead.

But no psychic does this. Not one. All they do is give generalised guesses that sometimes get lucky or messages so vague that they could apply to lots of people.

Why do believers in the paranormal get so animated and upset when they’re challenged?

Why do non-believers get so animated and upset when they're challenged?

Of course it depends on your circle but most people I know are cynics, and go to great lengths to argue about how none of this exists, and how they're all very superior and scientific. Fair enough if you're trying to protect a vulnerable person from being scammed. Or if you're arguing that a specific incident or person is fake. Or discussing how things can be faked.

But saying 'there's no proof therefore I am right' isn't in keeping with the scientific method. Even you, as intelligent as you clearly are (not sarcastic, I always have great respect for you on here), have immediately pegged me as a 'believer' just because I don't agree with you. You also said 'not one' psychic does X, Y, Z well have you interacted with every single one that has ever existed, in order to know that?

As stated multiple times, and I am stating here again for the last time, I never said that I believe. Or otherwise. I have just said there hasn't been enough evidence either way. Now, if someone invites me to a specific event or discussed a specific instance, my default position is that it's going to be fake, and it will take a lot to convince me otherwise. I'm probably not going to be convinced.

But, if we're discussing the abstract concept of whether people with supernatural powers exist. I can't with conviction say that they don't. That's all. There's no need to try and drill me into a specific side, it's not going to happen. Besides, you're the one who replied to my initial posts and kept on replying anyway.

@Disturbia81

Was this Grant Harris?

I have never been to a live medium event before. We saw his event last night and he also spoke to around 8-10 different people. He had names of varying family members and things that could only have been relevant to them. It didn't seem like a cold questioning thing to me at all. I've always been cynical myself but can't stop thinking about it!

A friend had a gig during college summers researching for a "well known" psychic. Did she pay with her card enter anything on SM, register her mobile or email? Photo in her SM clear image that Google lens could pull up, local papers, hang out in local bar before hand ,-; she did it all.