A question about D of E and expeditions

[EBearhug]

Today (or rather yesterday,) I went to the funeral of my D of E leader. Had my gold badge on and everything. Three of my expedition buddies were there, too - we did our expeditions in the late '80s. Obviously, there was much reminiscence, especially as there was an album full of photos and award notices and newspaper cuttings and so on. He was clearly proud of us all - and we were all there, over 30 years later.

One of my friends, her son did his bronze expedition in the last year or so. Apparently half the school year was doing it, and though they were walking in smaller groups, they all camped in the same place, loads of them, and followed the route - which they were just given.

In our day, we had to do all the planning, and do a project as part of it. We learnt the difference between true north, grid north and magnetic north for taking bearings and planning our route plan. We had to work out appropriate checkpoint places where the supervisors would meet us, and had to plan escape routes in case of emergencies. We also had to do timings, including working out how gradients would add to our walking pace. We did all this for the practice and the real thing, bronze, silver and gold. We deserved those awards - we worked hard for them!

If they're just given a route and told to follow it - why? How does this fulfil the requirements? Why aren't they doing the planning? Don't they have to do a project any more? Do they learn to do proper map reading? Is this just how bronze is done these days? I have looked at the DofE website, but it hasn't fully enlightened me. From what I can tell, there should be some sort of project/purpose, but only silver and gold needs a presentation. It all sounds a bit industrial and pointless if they're not really doing any work for it. Have we misunderstood, or is that how things are now?

DD did bronze and silver in the last few years. She and her group certainly had to plan their own route.

They still do all that you did. Its part of the course
I

We were given our route for bronze. Still had to follow the map and we were taught to use a compass.
I can't blame them with a group of 14 year olds to monitor. Being a school residential trip, of sorts, I guess it was part of a risk assessment.

For the gold group I was in, the first practice was planned by the group leaders. This was purely for admin reasons- the route had to be submitted to the local DofE office in advance. Uni term dates didn't allow for the students to plan their own in time for an autumn expedition. They'd plan their own spring practice and their final Easter/Summer assessed expectation.

Yeah bronze d of E my DSs group just were given a route, it was very easy. He'd done his trip for scout chief gold award two years before which was way harder and all done by the kids. D of E doesn't really compare to the expectations of scouting.

Bronze D of E is supposed to be accessible to all, a lot of youngsters I see doing it have little to no experience of being in the countryside.
When I did it we were given way points which constrained the routes we could take and the route had to be approved. In fact I know my "practice hike" was more challenging than the real thing as parts of the route had been ploughed up and planted with beans.
When my children did theirs they still had to overcome problems such as a group member who cried the whole way, a missing path and so on.
But Gold is far more challenging and has to be in far more challenging countryside. My daughter did hers on horseback which did constrain their route as they had to reach somewhere suitable for the ponies every night (similar to canoe where you have to stick to water ways). The extra challenge was that the ponies safety was always the priority regardless of how exhausted or hungry the riders were (they also could only ride for 20mins in every hour, having to walk the rest).

I only got as far as bronze and we’re going back about fifteen years.

I remember having to do a lot of map reading (or rather someone else in my group of three did it because I can’t read maps for toffee). Teachers didn’t give us too much guidance or help but were there about every five km at “checkpoints” so the route planning was more going from checkpoint to checkpoint than strictly A or B, but we were pretty much left to it otherwise. I don’t know how much compass stuff was going on because they would have been mental to give me responsibility to that, I can get lost on the way to the kitchen lol. Groups traveled alone but we were in small groups for the walking and camping. We were taught a few camping skills and again a teacher was keeping an eye to make sure we didn’t actually die but otherwise we were left to our own devices and misery if we make a mistake pitching camp - my team managed to pitch the tent in such a way that it actually dripped on my face (rainy night)and I clearly remember getting out of the tent when it first got light freezing cold and just lighting matches with a tentmate for the warmth!

They are all at same start point, camp site, and end point for safety & logistic reasons. There has to be toilets & water & a basically safe spot, they need to be expected by the venue owner and the adult volunteers need to take turns keeping an eye on them so need somewhere to stay, too. The camaraderie is nice part of experience, too.

They have set places (churches, postboxes, phone boxes) they have to stop at, so there are only so many possible routes possible with those fixed campsites & start-end points.

They still manage to get lost or take wrong turns fairly often, so I humbly submit that they work a lot on their map reading skills. They have to plan who carries what and how much of what items to carry and the food choices, still plenty of planning in it. They always have stories about chivvying along the weaker members.

DS2 is starting now, he will do skill for 3 months, physical exercise for 3 months and volunteering for 6 months. Unlike what I did for bronze and silver, where I ticked off the volunteering requirement with a short residential course, he’s actually going to help people for 6 months.

i did bronze through the school and I’m fairly sure we all camped at the same place so that the teachers could check
on us.

My son did bronze last year. They planned their own routes within their teams and also their meals and who was going to carry which items. They did all stay at the same campsite though.

DS is doing his bronze at the minute with his air cadets squadron. He had to learn all the map reading skills etc, plan the route and check points and although they all start and finish at the same points they went in small groups of 4/5 and set off at different times so that they all had to find their way on their own. They did get lost (and told off by a farmer!) along the way, and had to use those skills to get back on track. One boy in the group also had an asthma attack and they all helped him to a point where they could get help. They also cooked their own food, put their own tents up etc. It was definitely a challenge for them all.

Bronze is easier now in some schools. Still think it has value.

I did bronze and silver in New Zealand 15-20 years ago. We did no route planning and hardly any map reading. We followed Department of Conservation routes so there wasn’t really anything to plan and the map reading is very easy.
BUT. In New Zealand in the bush if you get lost it’s basically immediately a search and rescue operation. There were no post boxes/churches and definitely not multiple points on route that supervisors could drive ahead to to check the kids got there on time. Limited cellphone reception often although that may have improved since. Letting a bunch of 15year olds plot their own route through the bush would probably be considered reckless and neglectful.
Actually on one trip the path had basically fallen into the river and so we walked in the river for a couple of hours.
So yeah, these things get adapted to suit the groups and the area.

One mine started DofE through school, thinking it would be nice to do it with school friends. They stopped party way through and switched to doing it through scouting. School sessions taught them nothing, they got tents out of bags indoors, they did not learn any nav skills etc.

I really worry about many school groups and I think it is just luck that they get round in one piece a lot of the time. Of course it will depend on the school.

Same child did direct silver entry them gold through scouting. Sibling now doing direct silver. They don't bother doing the bronze. Their training sessions are in depth and they must attend a full weekend navigation training before they can do the expeditions. No thing person goes out there without good skills including being able to take bearings and navigate in rubbish visibility, they take them out in the dark on the training weekend for that purpose so if they clouds come down thick on their expeditions they know how to navigate.

Part of it is about accessibility and giving those opportunities to all, and that's important. But I do feel similarly OP that these mass school sessions don't really teach them anything and could be very dangerous.

I think friends who did Gold did have to choose their own route but it would have been looking at a selection of existing hiking trails and picking one and following it accurately rather than plotting their own new route through the wilderness.

Muy DD did it a few short years ago (worst experience of her life due to the horrible people in her team) and they had to plan their own. In fact they were so much on their own I wondered if there was an adult on the trip at all.

DD has not long finished her bronze.

they planned their route over some sessions held by the leaders after school. They had a practice weekend which was in warm, dry weather but the actual weekend was biblical rain. 50% dropped out over the 2 days. They carried their stuff, planned their food, pitched and cooked and camped together but otherwise were just in their individual groups. They had an emergency radio/phone thing but it didn’t work, they got lost, were missing in the dark for 2 hours. They had the good sense to find a safe place and get an adult to help, but it’s fair to say they were very challenged, coped brilliantly and absolutely earned their award!

My son did his bronze last year. School were very strict on the use of tech for navigation. Phones went in sealed, signed, bags and for a "someone has a broken leg" type emergency only. They failed people whose phones had been opened.

They had an OS map and a compass.
They got lost!
They used their map, their compass and their creativity (asked for directions, got even more lost)
In comparison to when I did it, very similar except we didn't have the phone as an emergency if needed

My daughter had to plan a route as a group. The start point and campsite were fixed. They also had to do a presentation afterwards. Same as what Bernadette said above about phones. On the practice expedition they did fine, then on the real one the girl who'd done all the map reading wasn't there and they got totally lost for hours. Good experience though.

Mine have done D of E, through two different schools.

DD1 at school A had to do planning and navigating.

DS 2 and DD2 at school B had a lot more guidance.

DD1 ‘s D of E coordinator also led the school Ten Tors team, so I don’t know if their enhanced route planning and navigation work was partly because of his interest, or because he could use this as additional Ten Tors training.

That’s really interesting. I think when I did it in the UK (where it’s obviously not potentially lethal but probably still pretty miserable to get lost) I can’t remember whether phone use was widespread enough that our group had them. I think some of the other members must have done.
This does bring back an unrelated but similar memory where I went on a sponsored ride, accidentally missed out a section and ended up doing something like forty miles instead of fifteen (don’t worry, the horse was very fit and could cope with it) so I could have finished the ride properly. I had to sit down with someone who could read maps properly to work this out, lol.
in DofE I was definitely the weak member of the team as I was so terrible with maps and also have a hip defect. However, I could contribute things like knowledge of footpaths, simple endurance and how to deal with or avoid farm animals due to my relatively rural upbringing.

So it sounds like it was just the way this particular school was doing it - that's positive (in general, if not for that particular school.)

We were in a rural area anyway, so we're probably expected to know how to (not) approach any animals we came across.

My daughter had to plan a route in her group (but it was checked) and their instructor would meet them at checkpoints. They had to plan their food and carry it. It was quite a shock to some of her friends who aren't used to that sort of thing. They all camped at the same place, which is perfectly reasonable for safety!

They didn't have to carry their tents and cookers though, and I am absolutely convinced that 30 years ago I had to carry ours. It wasn't lightweight either!!

I managed silver, she's sticking at bronze!

We definitely had to carry our tents and cookers. I remember on our gold, the boys forgot theor tent pegs...

There are some you can safely deal with - unless you’ve got sheep food you can safely deal with a field of sheep (if you’ve got sheep food you will be like a 2D character in a cartoon very quickly, when I used to lamb a whole flock for whole days alone, the man who owned them came back to feed them because I weight about 50kg and he was a 2m tall very strong outdoor type), definitely don’t go near cows in case they’re in a defensive mood and pigs just forget it, they’ll eat you if you faint. I’d risk it with a horse I think but there are lots of things you need to know to do or not do. The place I grew up in had loads of footpaths going through horse fields.