Can your 11 year old do this math problem?

[Mushroomwithaview]

I suppose the answer will be that some can and some can't.

My 11 yr old is absolutely incapable of understanding a problem like this on a conceptual level. I worry about her. But her teachers tell me she's doing okay in math.

"Is it 22 minus 10?"
"Is it a divide by?"
"Should I plus them all?"

Her number knowledge is really good. She knows all her tables and her basic facts. But she just can't seem to apply what she knows.

She's not traumatised by this by the way - we're not in tears at the kitchen table!! She's quite happy, just seemingly unable to grasp this or similar problems conceptually. Normal? Or not great at her age?

My 8 year old could easily do that. However, we work a lot of problem solving and applying knowledge into every day life so multi-step problems come easily to them. It's not something we consciously do but as both DH and my parents are teachers it's just something we both grew up with and do with our DC almost out of habit.

I’d hope he could - to me, being able to work out practical applications of maths is more important than getting sums right (though obviously getting both right is even better) because it shows genuine understanding. Also sets you up for algebra, which I absolutely loved.

DS can do basic problems like this aged 6 (if I had £3 and wanted to buy two 50p apples, how much change would I get). Seems to enjoy working them out.l in steps, so hopefully would manage something like this when he’s 11.

Of course it’s irrelevant. No one fucking asked what your opinion was on the ops use of words. Why try and derail a thread by being a bellend

Op my 13yo just shrugged and walked off 🤷🏼‍♀️😂

My ten year old would. In saying that he loves puzzles and does lots of logic quizzes. And is ahead of curriculum here in Ireland.

The issue is the conceptual thinking as opposed to specific math skills. I would encourage logic problems math or otherwise as it is a skill that can be acquired. My lad loves trying to work out Poirot episodes.

With my eldest it took a bit of time straight math he absolutely flew but having to decipher was a skill he had to work at. I think it was the first thing he encountered where he had to slow down to absorb it.

I mean I’m good at maths so I got this in record time, but that’s a fair bit of working out for an 11 year old… I definitely didn’t do this hard of questions when I was 11…

My 11 year old has discalculia so that is a big no but give her a book to read she would have it finished in no time. She is top set english but bottom for maths i guess we all have are weaknesses.

It’s a pretty typical y6 sats question (though the wording might be slightly friendlier…Chan would be the one doing the weighing!). So yes I would expect most 11 year olds to have a decent stab at it.

It is a bit like a simultaneous equation.

1 bottle + 22 tablets = 160 grams
1 bottle + 10 tablets = 124 grams

I can see what the person is trying to do. But it could be better written.

I have a bottle of tablets that weighs 160 grams. There are 22 tablets in it.
I take some tablets out. It now weighs 124 grams.

Can you work out the weight of a tablet?
Can you work out the weight of the bottle?

You would then need to look at the clues you have.

The maths skills and the maths teaching is to develop that clue hunting.

It would need building up - e.g. I have 24 sweets that weigh 100 grams.
I added some more sweets.
There are now 50 sweets.
How many sweets did I add, what does 1 sweet weigh and what is the total mass?

Etc
(And then try to use algebra !!!)

This is true.
It's relatively easy to teach solving simultaneous equations when they are presented as a 2 simultaneous equations.

But put a maths problem into words and then someone has to work out what the maths needed to solve it is can make things harder for pupils who have just been taught the skill of solving equations without having to solve problems where you have to derive the equations.

Practise with real life examples and using visualisation.
Draw pictures if need be.
There is no wrong method to learn to solve problems if the method you use gets the right answer.

You can know your bonds and facts but some pupils struggle with solving problems.

You can use deals from Tescos. e..g. 2 for 1, comparing different prices for different amounts.

How many portions in a 500 g of cornflakes (if you eat the recommended portion) Will there be any left over?

And if you use maths in real life, solve the problem with her. The cost of things on holiday. Converting foreign currency. Buying petrol.

How much would it cost to fill your car with petrol?

I have no idea how to do it
I'm 50 and have a degree

Well said!

Agree with all those separating conceptual understanding from number knowledge.

Two years ago she had neither. She has worked hard on both - we looked at number knowledge first and now that's great which reduces the cognitive load when trying to work out tricky problems (it's helpful to just know that 160 - 124 = 36, and that 36 / 12 = 3 without having to work that out on top of everything else).

But we have also done a lot of work on her conceptual understanding and she's just not making progress. Everything people are suggesting on this thread - deals in the supermarket, doubling recipes, working out times / distance in real life - we do it all. Her older brother is fab - very keen on math and a very patient and gentle explainer, and we both agree that there's a disconnect somewhere. She's a smart kid and loves to try her best. There's something odd about her absolute lack of conceptual understanding, given all her other skills and knowledge. It concerns me.

I don't think my 15 year old could do it. Any word problem and he panics. He's predicted a 3 in this year's GCSE so does struggle with maths. His brother in the year below could probably do it if he took the time to read it properly but he also hates word problems.

I think it's a poorly written question too.

It's all very well saying do this, then do that, but it is really badly worded, and seems almost deliberately contrived to confuse the less able pupils even more.

But you clearly knew what was meant, so the word she used was perfectly functional.

I'd like to know how you know what others are thinking - and does this superpower extend to horse racing, the lottery, etc? Or is it just common or garden telepathy?

😅

@SantaBarbaraMonica not sure why that's funny? She figured out 160 - 124, used her times tables to divide 36 by 3, multiplied 3 by 22, then subtracted 66 from 160. It's not very complicated maths for a bright kid.

I’m autistic and until Lavinia clarified they meant ‘empty bottle’ I was like - they’ve told me! So although I’m good at maths the written question was a total barrier to me.

My brain just shuts down and simply does not want to attempt to try this and it's Primary school maths

There needs to be an example question so they know what they're trying to achieve

My DS is taking FM and will be starting a maths degree later this year specialising in pure maths

God only knows where his maths ability comes from because I just have no interest

These poor DC that have to pass their maths gcse when you just want to close your brain off to it

He can do it

Its all about taking the time to really give himself enough time and to focus

It's more like a formula, than maths, like working out a puzzle

So long as he has examples to keep referring to to to just keep at it

I had to get my DD a tutor, DD asked for a tutor so I luckily found her a lovely female tutor in her 20's who connected well with DD. She passed her maths GCSE with a 5 I think it was. DS got a 9 but he just gets it. He sees it and understands it. The rest of us have to really think about it.

Go through lots of past papers when you have the mark scheme (answers) to help, bits of it will click. Just one question a day to start of with or more. Foundation GCSE is easier thank god.

There are pupils who are eminently capable of doing 178 - 124 for example but who struggle with seeing the maths behind a situation which needs maths to solve it.

And that's where maths can become interesting as opposed to dry pages of equations to solve.

Did she read it fully before guessing , especially the 'hint' in the bubble? The hint should trigger an 'oh ok, let me try that', then when it works out, confidence starts to grow.

It could simply be she has a bit of a block. If she has been progressing elsewhere this may just not be clicking.

I've worked on a few third level Mathematical courses and there is research ongoing to ensure Universal Design Elements to facilitate ND. So it is something that is being explored.

People might find past papers and typical maths problems where you have to figure out the maths to do interesting

AQA | Find past papers and mark schemes

The example here

Question paper (Foundation) : Paper 2 Calculator - November 2020 (aqa.org.uk)

Question 13 is an interesting one as you have to figure out the maths.
15 is a bit harder
18 - increasing in complexity
21 - a strange one

But these questions don't tell you the maths - you have to figure it out