Call in sick if can’t get time off?

[OctoberRainStorm]

we have arranged a week long cottage holiday to celebrate DM’s big birthday. It’ll be me and my family, and my sister and her family plus DM and DF. We are all very excited. It’s in April.

DN is 19 and has a minimum wage job in a chain pub. She asked for the time off and they said no as other people already off the same time. DN explained about family trip and they wouldn’t budge. It’s not a great work place. The people who are off work different jobs to my DN. And there’s a high rate of calling-in-sick so staffing is never as they planned.

the cottage is too far to pop back for her shifts. DN says she’ll call in sick. I don’t feel bad for her employers as they aren’t good to her. They make her stay late unpaid. They make her attend staff meetings unpaid on days off. They change shifts last minute. But my question would be, could she get into trouble for this as they know she wanted those days off? Would they have to prove she wasn’t ill?

she can’t just quit really as there aren’t a lot of jobs where she lives. Though if she got fired she’d be alright. But we don’t want her to have that happen really.

It's a good lesson to teach DC that they've no moral obligation to be honest with employers who shit all over NMW law and steal time from their staff.

If I was your niece I would be looking for another job and leave. Tell the new job that you have a holiday already booked and they should honour that.

I appreciate it might not be possible to change jobs but it is worth a try. As another poster has said leave for the working conditions alone.

Better to resign than wait to get sacked imo. There must be plenty of other minimum wage jobs out there that she could apply for instead?

I don't agree. I would prefer to teach my dc to preserve her own integrity regardless of how shit other people might be. And to walk away from a toxic environment where people are treating her like shit because she deserves much better than that. Not to lower herself to the same level as them.

Different values, I guess.

They'll know she isn't ill. It can make her life at that place worse as they can just manage her out. She either doesn't go or hand her notice in and find a new job.

Yep, different values indeed. I find the idea that the person who's being subjected to illegal behaviour at the hands of the more powerful party should potentially be the one to lose out an actively poor value to transmit.

Yeah this is making it pretty obvious she’s not sick

Resigning is a lot better than getting fired. Her employer sounds like they have a chronic staff shortage and absolutely stinking morale. No matter how toxic the workplace is, it's always better to hand in notice than to be caught lying and getting a bad reference as a result.

I definitely wouldn't ring in sick but I would 100% hand my notice in beforehand!
Presuming she waitresses or is bar staff or similar, surely she could try to get a similar job somewhere else? Bar/cafe/restaurant etc

But that would be daft as you'd be throwing away the experience as well

I know MN is obsessed by references but in that situation you're only going to get the basic confirmation of dates worked if that

Given the rest of the circs id stick it out until the holiday while applying for other jobs then resign. I agree with reporting for abuse of NMW too

Considering you say it's an awful place to work could she try to find a new job and mention in the interview she won't be available on x date as she has something planned?

She can, of course, threaten them with reporting for breach of NMW laws in order to extract a non-negative reference if she thinks that's important. Agree it would only ever be likely to be a dates worked reference for that type of job these days. Those are becoming more common in general.

Request unpaid leave, if that's refused, hand in her notice and look fur a new job.

Did she ask in writing? I'm wondering if there's a record of her request.
Anyway, nearer the time ( a few days before the trip), I think she should tell them she won't be in on x date due to family things that she needs to attend. At that point she can tell them she quite understands if they want to let her go, even though she has been loyal, done unpaid overtime etc, but that she won't be in on those dates. Don't tell them before as they may sack her sooner if they are stroppy types.
Alternatively she could phone in sick and let it play out.
I think in any event she should stop the unpaid overtime,or put in a claim for it.

If my dd's employer was behaving illegally, I would be encouraging and supporting her to challenge it through the appropriate channels and/or to find an employer who treated her better. Not telling her to suck it up and make the best out of it by behaving dishonestly herself towards them.

I guess it's no wonder that we end up with poor employers treating people like shit if parents teach their kids that ethics and integrity don't matter.

@MrsBennetsPoorNerves I agree about the appropriate channels for paying under the minimum wage. Hence my suggestion of naming the pub chain, especially if they have say over 100 pubs so which one the OP is referring to cannot be identified. Also I would hope I don't spend my money there so would like to know so I can boycott said chain.

This post is nonsensical.

It's those who think the DD has any kind of moral obligation not to lie to employers like this, ie you, who are expecting her to suck this up. Also, employers behave badly because they can. You're victim blaming. That in particular is an appalling value to transmit to a child.

She might get away with it.

I'd have a different perspective. She's 19. She's working in a job that sounds hard work and unsatisfying.

Now she's willing to jeopardize even that job to spend time with her extended family on a holiday.

It's lovely that you are close, but it would be okay for a 19 year old to have her own plans and just join you on the days she is free. It's okay that she would ask advice but maybe not usual - a 19 year old could make her own decision, quietly.

Does she feel under pressure to come? Is it okay for her to live her own life a bit, which might also help her get out of the dead-end job?

I don't think her future is going to be that much affected by whether she lies to get time off or not, but there needs to be a stage in her life where she's not expected to drop everything and join extended family for a week.

I'd tell her she's welcome, but no pressure. Make sure she has the space from extended family to plan her own life, because her situation doesn't sound great right now.

Absolutely not acceptable to teach her that's okay

How on earth is it victim blaming?

The OP's dd requested time off and it was refused. She is wondering whether to call in sick instead. That is dishonest and wrong.

The dd's employer treats its staff badly. That is also wrong but it has nothing to do with her wanting the time off. They're separate issues and two wrongs don't make a right.

Employers behave badly because they can. The logical conclusion to that is that employees should not let them get away with it. They should challenge them through the appropriate legal channels and/or they should walk away and work for a better employer instead.

I'm not expecting the OP's dd to suck it up at all. I'm saying that she should quit and look for something else, and report any illegal practices while she's at it.

You're suggesting that she should carry on working there (assuming she doesn't get sacked for lying) but feel no obligation to behave towards them in an ethical manner because they are shit employers. That's the essence of sucking it up in my opinion, and giving up on your own integrity in the process. Fine if that's the kind of approach that you want your dc to take in life. It isn't what I would choose for mine.

Yes, I agree, it would be good to know the pub chain. But equally, I would understand if the OP would prefer not to say.

Actually you really can! Re-read even that link, and it says so! She has already asked for the time off - at a very popular time of year for leave. She was told no and then coincidnetally gets sick and goes on the holiday that she asked for time off for 3 months earlier?? That's an invite to dismiss!

Two wrongs don't make a right. If you don't like your employer, get another job. But many many employers, including good ones, would refuse leave if they already had too many people on leave at a popular time of the year. You book the leave BEFORE you make arrangements not after. She could ahve cancelled the leave if the arranagements hadn't come to fruition.

@LlynTegid oh you know the pub. It’s the one you’re thinking of.

I appreciate your posts. What a great way to obtain so many opinions without bias towards my DN.

She could explain to her employer in a polite way that she really needs to attend the family event and as she can't have the annual leave, she will really have no other option than to hand in her notice, which she doesn't want to do as enjoys working there.

1. If the employer values her as a good worker, they will try to keep her and make the leave work.
2. If not - she knows they are a rubbish employer and don't value her - so she should look for another job anyway!

She really doesn't need to attend the week long holiday, she wants to (which is great) but she could celebrate the birthday without being there for a week. Sometimes adults with jobs can't do everything they want to!