Why aren’t politicians honest about needing migration?

[rickyrickygrimes]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/dec/29/politicians-immigration-wrong-cheap-labour

This article answers some questions I’ve had about migration, confirming that the pull factors created by the huge demand for cheap workers in northern / western countries is what drives migration in that direction. Refugees / asylum seekers (despite the headlines) are a tiny proportion of migrants. The vast majority of migrants are legal and needed - 9/10 Africans arriving in Europe do so legally, with visas and passports in hand.

why aren’t politicians honest about the fact that if we want to keep the cost of providing social / elderly care down, we need migrants to come and work in this sector for low wages? That if we want affordable houses to be built, we need construction workers to come here and build them? That if we want childcare to be provided cheaply we need migrants to come and work in the crèches and nurseries of Europe, again for low wages? That if we want to eat cheap food, migrants have to come and pick it cheaply?

Its our desire for cheap food / care / housing / etc that drives this, not the push away from their countries of origin.

Tech solutions will only do that IF we invest in them, so long as labour is cheaper, thats what will win out.

people seem to have this belief that AI will be the solution but as you say the gov needs to invest in it. I can’t see tech companies making it cheap & easily accessible

Yes this. They don’t want to invest, they don’t believe in national ownership of public services, they want privatisation of as many services as possible (which means profit for business owners/shareholders). They don’t care about low wages. They then demonise the very people they need because it distracts from their shitty management of our Country/services/economy.

Of course we could do it all differently but that would need a Government that
A: cared enough
B: was capable of being honest.

I’m not sure this is the way to look at it. AI will be hugely profitable for tech companies, they don’t need extra gov funding. And yes it will be much cheaper than labour

We do need to derive tax from their profits though as more people will be replaced

There need to be some deep structural changes in the UK if we don't want to keep relying on cheap immigrant labour (personally I don't have a problem with immigration but I do want people to be paid fairly for the work they do). There needs to be more taxation (or better use of money raised through taxation) to pay healthcare, and especially social care, workers properly. We need to pay more for hotels/cafes/restaurants etc to pay for hospitality workers, or come up with a different business rates system that reduces overheads for these businesses. We need more affordable housing in the South East so people doing lower paid jobs can afford to live there in a reasonable standard. Some immigrant workers are prepared to live in overcrowded, sub-standard accommodation while they earn but this should not be expected.

I don't think there's any appetite for these changes but it's a straw man argument from the Tories to keep cracking down on legal migration numbers as a supposed vote-winnong strategy while doing absolutely nothing to address the reasons it is needed.

@EasternStandard but won’t the gov need to invest in order to get something back as they do now?

As in incentives for the tech companies?

and the resulting job losses etc won’t be cheap in terms of providing people with an income

Will also require international tax agreements, companies will not want to pay more tax.

I doubt this brave new world will ever exist, tech has an amazing ability to create more jobs.

There need to be some deep structural changes in the UK if we don't want to keep relying on cheap immigrant labour (personally I don't have a problem with immigration but I do want people to be paid fairly for the work they do). There needs to be more taxation (or better use of money raised through taxation) to pay healthcare, and especially social care, workers properly. We need to pay more for hotels/cafes/restaurants etc to pay for hospitality workers, or come up with a different business rates system that reduces overheads for these businesses. We need more affordable housing in the South East so people doing lower paid jobs can afford to live there in a reasonable standard. Some immigrant workers are prepared to live in overcrowded, sub-standard accommodation while they earn but this should not be expected.

But where will that money come from? Tax on income is already pretty high but people won’t vote for a shift to say a wealth tax. Making housing the economy has fucked it & I have no idea how it can be fixed now.

Oh right yes we probably do need incentives to keep those companies here so we get the tax

We’re pretty good afaik currently, particularly on innovation (less so in scaling up) but will likely be in an increasing bun fight over where they are based

OECD have a recent tax agreement at 15% iirc

But where will that money come from? Tax on income is already pretty high but people won’t vote for a shift to say a wealth tax. Making housing the economy has fucked it & I have no idea how it can be fixed now

The UK's overall tax burden is stunningly low, we are around 35% France 44%, the UK is below both the EU and the OECD average rates and boy doesn't it show!!! Recent cost surveys have showed the avg British worker is £10k per year worse off than a worker in Germany or France, what have low taxes really got us?

Wealth taxes won't affect 95% of people but so long as we have piss poor political parties, you re right, we wont vote for a better n fairer tax system

In certain sectors in the uk ,employers are legally allowed to pay less to an immigrant worker recruited from overseas than a uk resident…….

yes that’s the issue I can imagine, getting the tax & then fighting between countries to attract them.

The international CT agreement isn't yet in force, it may never be, its incredibly complicated, cross border taxation of companies that have a lower tax rate, min rates, profit and loss tax deductible, its a bit like a UN resolution on Gaza... "probably" unenforceable

In any case, (due to be implemented in 2024) pillar 2 (the main bit) is optional.

Having a tax system based on notional job losses caused by AI etc is never ever going to happen.

I think the main driver for investment will be skilled workforces, health, education and transport systems for said workers.

UK is behind the curve on some of that but scores highly on language and culture.

We need migration but at the moment migration is about 4 times higher than we need. Illegal immigration costs the tax payer £8 million per day putting them up in hotels.

@candycrush02 I do agree taxes are low compared to other countries but I feel in the UK it is disproportionate re income vs other sources & we have much higher wealth inequality vs other EU countries. Plus for many there isn’t the feeling they are getting “something back” for their tax if that makes sense. And I do believe many won’t vote for a fairer tax system because they think they are voting against their future aspirations not realising it makes their aspirations less likely.

You may be right. I don’t know how many have signed up who are under. Ireland is the one I’m aware of, talking about a top up tax to reach 15%. Not sure when though

There are others not signed up I assume who may be attractive

Going back to the op immigration for workforce may well flip to being concerned about job losses and how to get the tax

Hmm Indian nurse with brown face gets paid less than British nurse with white face for doing exactly the same job.

Nothing to do with Human Rights and more to do with racial discrimination and equal pay.

They just won't come then? Filipinas have a great reputation in nursing. But a few years ago their government advised them not to emigrate to Ireland. Even though the wages are the same for everyone, its not enough to live on in Dublin. London eg is no better in that respect. So if you reduce the wages. .