Wondering if other people do this - creating an "Island in the mess"?

[BertieBotts]

I was chatting with my mum the other day and I was able to put into words something which has been bothering me for decades and I wondered if anyone else is like me.

I tend to be naturally quite messy/chaotic. Could be to do with ADHD (I am diagnosed) or could be learned or could be personality. Both I have to make a real effort to even think about cleaning up but also I'm not particularly bothered by ambient mess and clutter.

Anyway, I have a thing that I tend to do which is something like - if the kitchen counter is dirty, and I want to prepare food now and don't have time to clean, I will take a clean chopping board and place that on the dirty counter to be a clean "island" on which I can prepare food without it coming into contact with the counter. I have been known to clean one hob in order to put a pan on that one hob while leaving the rest with stuff (pans as well as spilled food) on it - less likely to do that these days, more because I think it gets in the way and is hazardous, plus it doesn't really take any more time to wipe down the whole hob at once. I will be mentally keeping track of the "clean" and "dirty" areas and avoid e.g. contaminating the clean area by placing a utensil that has touched raw meat on there - I would use a separate saucer or something to avoid this touching the dirty counter too.

If I want to write on a piece of paper or do some drawing, I assume that surfaces (floor, table, etc) might have dropped/spilled food and therefore might dirty the paper, so I would either wipe clean the immediate area that I wanted to work in or I would use something like a book to lean on or place newspaper down first, both to protect the surface from my activities but also to protect my activities from the surface.

In general I am very careful where I place things in order to avoid them being damaged or contaminated by the environment which I assume might not be that clean, but also, I'm mostly aware of the contents of the mess and would avoid putting new items that might contaminate e.g. if I have McDonald's wrappers, I would try to keep them all together and away from a stack of paper such as paperwork which needs filing, which would get grease marks on them.

OTOH I have noticed that many people, including my DH, tend to go ahead and use the whole of an area without particularly noticing if it is clean or dirty or has important protection-worthy items in it, and by doing this, can contaminate items e.g. cardboard jigsaw pieces get grease stains on them or a wet cloth used to wipe something gets left in a position where it contacts absorbent items and causes damage to them. Either this, OR, if he wants to (e.g. cook) he simply won't do it in a messy area, he will stop and clean the whole kitchen first and only then start cooking, even if this makes it much later, or he will announce that it's impossible to cook and come up with some other solution e.g. we go out for fast food. If he is forced to operate in the messy environment it makes him very stressed and flustered.

And for another example, I used to constantly have a very messy bedroom, but I would carefully choose a spot for my foot in order to walk across the room without damaging things which are on the floor. (Like a cat does). I remember being frustrated that my younger sister, and also DH, would just plough across the room standing on whatever is in the way, like a dog does. I used to put this down to a male/female difference (DSis adopted my method as she got older) but I wonder if it's not more of a difference in that I/my family expect to operate in chaotic/messy environments and it's sort of a workaround for me (us), whereas probably most people expect their environment to be basically clean and functional, and if they cannot or will not clean it first then they simply continue to operate as though it was clean and functional. I grew up in an all-female home and I often incorrectly attributed things to being female vs male when it was actually my family vs the world.

Anyway I am now wondering if I am a complete and total weirdo or if anyone else does this? I think in some ways it makes me quite adaptable as I can operate in (what seems to me) a safe and effective way even in a chaotic environment, but I have realised that other people do not see it this way, it is seen as quite dysfunctional.

I'm totally the same, I exasperate myself

I find your post very interesting.

Im probably at the other end of the cleaning spectrum, but I’m older and live alone now, so have the time and energy.

When my child was younger, I felt my house was always cluttered with just Too Much Stuff. It was reasonably clean, but I always likened it to being like a fat women in a corset, and as soon as you take your eye off her, the fat lady (the home), takes off her corset and it all just spills out. It was an old house and generated its own dust.

I read many years ago that people who don’t mind clutter and mess in front of their eyes, just have ‘quieter’ brains. Whereas those who get bothered by mess have less quiet brains.

Im sorry I can’t remember the definition of the quieter brain. I get overwhelmed by external stimulation eg noise, bright lights etc, so maybe it’s a sensory processing one. I’ve always had it, but it’s got worse as I’ve got older.

My closest friends house was very very messy, and her husband was useless too. She was very concerned about cleanliness and washed clothes even if they’d been worn for 5 mins, bath towels were washed after every wash. She didn’t have much storage, so the dirty washing was left in front of the washing machine and you would have to step over it in her tiny kitchen. Her house didn’t seem dirty, but I don’t how she could clean with the chaos on every surface.

She wasn’t lazy, just very very busy (less sure about the husband). Even making a coffee seemed impossible to me as there just wasn’t any space. She was a fabulous cook. I would regularly feel compelled to clear up her kitchen, finish the washing up, unload the dishwasher, dry the crockery, stack things more space efficiently. She always seemed grateful, but in hindsight I now wonder if I was overstepping.

But I would resort to the behaviour you have described if I had been there a while. If the kitchen was a disaster again, I would just clean and clear just enough space to do what I needed. I remember being really surprised when she told me that tidying and sorting just weren’t on her mind day to day and she had no allocated time for it. It was more of an occasional thing, like cleaning windows. Plus she said she just didn’t know how to tackle it.

She was exceptionally well qualified in the computer coding field.

So maybe that’s the stage you are at, in that you’ve mentally accepted that the mess isn’t going away soon, but mess can hide dirt. So you are doing what you can to preserve hygiene because it’s important to you.

Maybe your relatives aren’t so aware of the contamination problem. I think you have a good coping strategy.

Sorry that’s such a rambling post.

I don't really think in terms of contamination to be honest. I just think things are either clean or dirty.
I don't like dirty so I clean as I go and do regular bigger cleans to keep on top of things.
If you wouldn't contaminate a piece of food on one of your surfaces how do you feel about your children touching them? It doesn't sound like a particularly nice environment for them to be growing up in.

I don't have ADHD, but I am not a naturally tidy person. Although I love the look of a spotless, immaculate house, I can work/eat/do stuff perfectly fine in a messy environment and I do not worry about contamination.

I’m like you! Also dx with ADHD…

Presumably because she had enough energy/exec function to do enough to make the sandwich but not enough to tidy up all the wrappers. That’s a separate job.

You talk about how you feel a lot of your habits come from your childhood. They also don’t seem to be making you very happy. Is this what you want for your dc?

My dh grew up with a hoarder. As an adult he has an immense need for organisation and a tidy home though he struggles with lots of the steps to get there and has to expend energy overcoming the need to hoard which he learnt as a child. I really feel for him and the mental and emotional energy he has to expend to help him feel comfortable at home. He was very clear he didn’t want our dc to have any of those habits, so put the work in. We find the Marie kondo approach of everything having one home (eg all pens go in one place) really helps to keep everything organised and stop the clutter.

I don't have ADHD but my best work buddy and desk neighbour does, her desk is chaos; wrappers, cups growing things, piles of papers mixed in with random leaflets, news articles all sorts. I just couldn't work in that space but she comes in clears a space in the middle and gets on with her job, which she is fantastic at. I only say something when the cups/bowls are really bad and start to smell or it's causing a crockery deficit in the staff kitchen. I used to tidy up for her thinking if I got it straight she'd find it easier to manage but whilst she was appreciative it didn't help!

I think you know it but you are trying to push this reality away by getting other people on here to agree with you, and deflecting your frustration by getting annoyed with other people at home because they are not following your system. They never will, because it’s not rational. Nobody will ever be able to read your mind and understand what it is you have decided is clean or unclean.

Thank you, but I am honestly not particularly looking for people to validate my method. I do happen to think that it is functional and there is nothing inherently incorrect about it, but I also recognise that there are so many benefits in general from having a better organised space, especially for the children, so it is a priority I'm working on. It is already much better, e.g. the example I used about trampling over things on the floor is now hypothetical, because it just doesn't happen.

I am actually surprised that so many people have responded that they do it too because I assumed I would be in a very small minority (perhaps I attracted other "islanders" with the title!)

I do get a bit frustrated at other people not being aware of my system and not understanding what I have designated as clean vs unclean, so it's helpful to see from the outside that this is not immediately obvious even if it seems rational to me.

I did actually have a few OCD flags come up at diagnosis but the doctor felt they were related more to ADHD coping strategies than OCD but it might be something I explore in the future if it ever becomes a problem.

It sounds totally normal and sensible to me. I don't have an ADHD diagnosis... but I have ND children, and anything I read about ADHD in women sounds disconcertingly biographical...

I'm not naturally dirty. Cluttery. I find minimal spaces unsettling and distracting. Out of sight is out of mind which is unproductive. Mess will accumulate, but it's relatively short term and does get dealt with. Making a sandwich is not the time to deal with it though, so yes I'd create the clean island to make it in, rather than spending half an hour sorting the whole kitchen out there and then.

The do it as you go approach makes no sense to me. There might be enough space in the bin to create that island for the sandwich, but to do the whole job, I might have to empty the bin, so I have to find the crocs, and get a coat, then take the bin bag out, then rinse the bin out because it's a bit stinky and needs doing before the next bag goes in, then I'll notice that DS's toilet needs cleaning and end up on a chain of 10 other things that needed doing while the whole sandwich business gets forgotten about. Then I've still got a messy kitchen to deal with and a sandwich to make. A clean island makes far more sense and then I'll blitz the kitchen when I've got the chunk of time to deal with doing it.

DH who is the "tidier" person, is dirtier. He would clear away the clutter from the whole work top, but is more likely to not bother wiping down the crumbly and sticky bits.

@eurochick ’whopping board’ 😅. That’s going to be my name for it now!

op I’m like you, I can’t manage to clean properly very often and end up just making sure the important bits are done/kept separate. I have a friend who is like your dh, though, and it’s difficult to watch! She’s just as chaotic but also doesn’t seem to notice if stuff is in the way.

I think then I just mean dirty.

I don't really worry about the children touching the kitchen counters because it's not really something that they do.

But also I don't think I would be as worried about this. I read this earlier but didn't respond because I was heading out the door but I think it is this - hands can be washed, but if food gets into contact with the wrong other food then it will taste unpleasant, and there might be some kind of health issue too, like if I'd spilled egg or something on the counter a couple of days before (But it would be dry anyway, so wouldn't do anything to hands). But I must not be worried about health hazards really because I probably do touch the counter myself and wouldn't immediately wash my hands unless I got something like tomato sauce or grease or on them.

@Isheabastard thank you for the rambling post! I definitely do not have a "quiet" brain but I do find all the clutter quite comforting, I don't like minimalist environments, this feels very cold to me. Trying to find a balance though between functional and comfortable. I do really like A Slob Comes Clean as someone else recommended, her concept of a "clutter threshold" is very useful.

@BogRollBOGOF Yes this is very familiar. I have heard this referred to as a "shaved yak problem" which is where whatever task that you need/want to do is blocked by another task, which in turn is blocked by another task, which in turn is blocked by another task and you are engaging in the end of a long list of seemingly unrelated tasks just so you can start the first one. It was an interesting metaphor for me because it links well with my observation I made a couple of years ago which is that everyone has some of the same problems as someone with ADHD (losing things, procrastinating, going to bed too late, being useless in the morning, forgetting things, impulsively agreeing to too much) some of the time, people with ADHD seem to be struggling with most of them most of the time, and then also the environment is almost set up to work against you as well. Not because of some kind of "woe is me" karmic force, but because (as I discovered recently) neurotypical people who aren't struggling with chronic health conditions generally do dozens of tiny things every day to set things up nicely for the next time they do something, almost automatically - the cleaning up the kitchen as you cook, putting paperwork back in the document file after doing something with it, so there is never any random pile, putting dirty plates etc directly IN the dishwasher, rather than on top of it, putting a new toilet roll in the holder when one runs out.

I am getting better at figuring out what these things need to be. But for example when everything was at its worst, it would never in a million years have occurred to me to do most of them proactively like that. And even if it had occurred to me then it would have immediately turned into a shaven yak situation - the paperwork document box is overflowing and barely fits into the place where it's supposed to fit because I keep just putting things randomly to the side of it. So "just putting the documents back" becomes another long exercise of taking everything down and sorting it all into piles before I can even put the box back into the shelf again. After a while the pile will annoy me too much so I will just cram it in by the side of the box to get it off the table. But then the next time somebody needs a document, pieces of paper go everywhere and you can never find anything.

Cleaning up the kitchen as you cook requires that the dishwasher needs to be emptied in the first place and emptying the dishwasher means that you need to have enough space in the cupboards to put things away. Oh and you also need to have not impulsively taken the dishwasher apart to clean every piece of it because you started with the door seal and then it was like a horrifying Pandora's box discovering that not only have you/DH never done this in the last five yeasrs of living here, it looks like the previous tenants never did either. At least thanks to medication I actually finished that and reassembled it by the end of the day and had enough energy and patience left to make dinner (and thanks to good habits there was no backlog of washing up and the kitchen was totally usable) and participate in bedtime. Before medication I would have run out of energy halfway through, and DH probably would have had to make it functional again because we would have run out of everything and then I would have been annoyed at him for not finishing it to my standards and annoyed at myself for not being able to do it.

I actually had a very happy childhood. And I think my children do too. It was much worse when DS1 was little, and I do regret that. I am trying to teach him my new discoveries now but he is a teenager so he is not very interested. His desk is like the colleague's desk somebody mentioned - we try to remind him to bring things out before we run out of every bowl or a smell develops.

It does sometimes upset me that I feel I can't/don't maintain the level of cleanliness that I would ideally like to, but at the same time I can also look around and see how different it all is compared to how I was living before, especially at my worst points. Even compared to about a year or two ago it's so much better and compared to 14/15 years ago it's like a different person. DH used to come over and tidy up the house, because he thought it would help, and then he would be baffled when he'd arrive back 2-3 days later and it would be just as bad again. I have no idea why he married me anyway. He is constantly cleaning up and probably why we don't backslide into chaos all the time.

Op I would like to thank you. Your honesty and openness in your writing resonates with my situation so strongly. I haven’t been diagnosed and have only recently realised I am autistic, let alone have adhd. I could have written some of this though. It helps me understand more about myself.

you’re lucky to have found such a good dh, who clearly understands you.

I'm like you and I also have adhd. My 'contaminated' cooking counter is the same every time and I've never consciously realised that I do this until now!

Although I have figured out how to be tidy. I don't have stuff and I also switch summer and winter wear round to create less stuff. The not starting a task with the blocks really resonates with me. I still have muddles but I'm managed to crack the having a routine thing and finally after many years... putting my keys in the same place 99% of the time! Exercise and a natural serotonin supplement does wonders, as long as I stay in a routine (that I always want to rebel against)!

That's me, DH and my extremely untidy ADHD flatmate years ago. Anecdotes from ADHD friends would suggest it's common for us.

@BertieBotts, yes, I do exactly this 😂 I've never tried to describe it, and you have done so perfectly!

I'm not diagnosed with any ND although, like so many others, have a sneaking suspicion of ADHD. I used to be clean & tidy - that is, I'd make an enormous mess and then clean it up - but, with age & illness, that's gone and I've reverted to type.

Clean, tidy people don't get it. There is no "why don't you just ...?" Everything feels like planning a long, complicated journey. Putting the clean chopping board on the dirty worktop = hopping in a taxi and giving your destination to the driver.

I even buy new chopping boards when the ones I've got need more serious cleaning than I can face 😂

What you describe resonates with me although it's not quite what I do. The thought that springs to mind for me, is that I'd be trying to increase the size of the available islands. Mind you I've currently got a dining table problem as it is also my work table, and over the next couple of weeks my children will be home from uni and we will need 4 spaces to eat again which is a challenge as paperwork hasn't been put away / sorted ... A regular issue ...

I came across the concept of "microefficiencies" the other week which I rather like, I'm trying to identify some of the things that I do do that are like that, and frame other things I'd like to do in those terms in the hope of building tiny effective routines into my hours and days and weeks. Things like always getting new handtowels/kitchen towels out straight away when I put the used ones in the weekly wash - that's one I've hung onto for a long time now. But new this term is that I'm finally keeping a notebook record of the students I teach, just a few lines each time. And as my numbers have increased it is helping enormously to keep track of what we're doing. Although I've just caught up my notes for all last Saturday's students only 2 days later ....