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Elderly/non-independent man in hospital, what are his rights?

50 replies

Guibhyl · 10/11/2023 10:43

I’m in A&E for assessment for something. I’ve been put on a sort of holding ward which seems to be for people who they deem to need monitoring/regular obs while waiting for the doctor or maybe who cannot wait in the normal waiting room for some reason.

Theres an elderly man opposite me who has been brought in because he had a fall. He’s almost completely deaf (hence why I know all the details as he has to shout to hear himself and the nurses have to shout for him to hear them). He wants to go home and they’re saying he’s “not allowed” because they have to be sure he’s not going to fall again. I understand that and they need to put his safety first. He occasionally tries to get up to walk and they come over and sit him back down. This is not entirely consensual on his part from what I can tell but at the same time I understand that they can’t allow him to potentially fall again and injure himself.

The thing that is making me a bit uncomfortable about how he’s being treated is that he keeps asking for someone to phone his wife. He’s saying that he wants her to get a taxi here to be with him and so she’s not at home alone. Other people on this ward have relatives with them so in theory it seems like she could be here too. He is able to very clearly explain to the nurses what he wants them to say to his wife on the phone. Each time he asks “have you phoned my wife” someone says “not yet but I’ll go and do it now” or occasionally “we’ll phone her in a bit but we’re very busy”. Each time they have this conversation he tries to persuade them again that they need to phone her, and the discussion between him and the nurse takes longer than it would for them to just bloody phone her. Nurses are chatting happily with other patients, I have had offers of cups of tea etc and they don’t seem particularly under the kosh.

To be clear, I’m aware that with older people there may be issues I don’t know but it doesn’t seem to be a case of eg he’s got dementia and is asking them to phone his wife who actually died ten years ago. I’ve overheard the nurses saying to each other “are you gonna phone her” “yeah I’ll do it in a bit” etc. This has been going on for over an hour. I know nurses are extremely busy but they have had multiple conversations with him about this now all of which have taken longer than a phone call to his wife. It makes me feel so uneasy that he’s basically begging them to phone his wife and they either lie and say “I’ll do it now” then don’t or they say “I’ll do it in a little while”. He’s quite upset and every time someone goes past he pleads “will someone please just quickly phone my wife”.

I feel awful for him as he has no mobile phone, he says his eyesight is too bad to text and he cannot hear on the phone so I can’t even just offer him my own phone to allow him to call her. I feel like I need to say something but also don’t want to make their jobs even harder. WWYD? It must be such a horrible feeling for him to be pleading with them and worrying about his wife alone at home and to just keep being ignored.

OP posts:
EmmaEmerald · 10/11/2023 11:45

Okay

So there's a ton of reasons why calling her may not be the right thing to do and equally many reasons they may be unable to explain that to him.

To an outsider, my elderly mum looks okay, but she isn't.

TripleDaisySummer · 10/11/2023 11:52

My Dad been in that situation and others on ward rang Mum - and she was very grateful - he struggles seeing number, hearing and has when in hospital due to infections been confused.

Staff claimed they'll do something in a bit is part of the course and it then not being done - till doctor or family member insists - it varies ward to ward and who is on obviously but in my families experience is very common.

Astella22 · 10/11/2023 11:57

Your post makes me uncomfortable to even read, poor man. Just because they are nurses doesn’t mean they can’t be bad at their job and get some weird kick seeing him suffer. I saw those messages that nurse who was sedating patients sent….pure cold. It happens more the clearly people here want to admit.

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BareGrylls · 10/11/2023 12:04

The story of the good samaritan comes to mind.
Those people who filmed the man drowning in York last week but not one helped him.

Sometimes you interfere because another human being needs help.

I have done something like this when I was in hospital. Patient in next bed an elderly woman who couldn't use her phone because no signal. Set up wifi so she could message family.

x2boys · 10/11/2023 12:10

BareGrylls · 10/11/2023 12:04

The story of the good samaritan comes to mind.
Those people who filmed the man drowning in York last week but not one helped him.

Sometimes you interfere because another human being needs help.

I have done something like this when I was in hospital. Patient in next bed an elderly woman who couldn't use her phone because no signal. Set up wifi so she could message family.

Helping someone set-up.WiFi ,is one thing ,but the Op.doesn't have the full.facts of what's going on
And may do more harm than good by being "helpful"

lionsleepstonight · 10/11/2023 12:23

I think you'd have been right to advocate for him.

Same happened to my dad in hospital. He was 84, but still had full capacity but was treated like a child. Very upsetting and frustrating for him and us.

He's no longer with us, but I'd wish he'd been advocated for while in hospital.

Guibhyl · 10/11/2023 12:27

@EmmaEmerald the nurses didn’t say a reason to the doctor why they hadn’t called her. They could have done so without him hearing because he can’t hear anything that is said at a normal volume - he can barely even hear shouting. When the doctor asked why she hadn’t been called they could have said “she’s not there” or “she’s asked for no contact” or “social care have advised against contact” or anything. They didn’t, they just said oh yes we’re going to, we’ll go and do it now.

One nurse in particular has made me quite uncomfortable, talking to him in a horrible tone, clearly annoyed by him. Doesn’t seem to care that he’s in distress. It’s quite upsetting to see.

They’ve phoned his wife now and they’re arranging transport to take him home.

OP posts:
AngelAurora · 10/11/2023 12:29

I am sure the nursing staff know more about his situation than you OP, leave them to fo their job.

AngelAurora · 10/11/2023 12:31

user1497207191 · 10/11/2023 11:23

Sadly, this kind of "too busy to actually do something but having plenty of time to complain about being too busy", is becoming commonplace. I've certainly experienced similar far too many times, with someone spending several minutes explaining why they can't do something (involving unnecessary whingeing) when they could have just done it in that time. It seems to be creeping into most areas of the public sector sadly.

Well another know it all it seems.

Guibhyl · 10/11/2023 12:31

@Youthinkyoureuniqueyourejustastatistic I’m sorry your grandad had such a horrible experience. I know staff must be desensitised to some of what they see but it’s just not acceptable to treat a patient without respect and compassion.

OP posts:
warriorofhopelessness · 10/11/2023 12:33

I’d phone his wife for him.

volunteersruz · 10/11/2023 12:34

Sadly being in hospital is a great time to be exposed to the realities of the NHS. I hate to say it but this low level poor treatment is absolutely nothing compared to some abuses of care that I’ve seen working in hospitals .

Youthinkyoureuniqueyourejustastatistic · 10/11/2023 12:40

Guibhyl · 10/11/2023 12:31

@Youthinkyoureuniqueyourejustastatistic I’m sorry your grandad had such a horrible experience. I know staff must be desensitised to some of what they see but it’s just not acceptable to treat a patient without respect and compassion.

Thank you.
He died almost 7 yrs ago now, unfortunately in hospital because although he wanted to be home he got stuck in the hospital machine over Christmas.

I think it’s much worse in the holding transient wards - where they have a varied mix of issues.
Care was better on the actual more specialised wards.

It wasn’t until I found out about hospice care that I realised just how bad it is.

What makes it harder is I was about 40 weeks pregnant at the time with his first great grandchild. And struggled to help him like I would have been able to otherwise. I feel so bad I didn’t help him get home - so I went to the funeral home on the day of the funeral and rode with him from there to his house to take him home and pick up the rest of the family.
(in the end he met his great grandchild and we visited for 2 weeks before he died)

Sorry to overshare.

I hope you recover soon and get home.
It’s really lovely you care and are looking out for someone else.

Wishitsnows · 10/11/2023 12:44

Sounds like the nurses would rather waste 3 times as long as it would have taken to make the call to repeatedly fob off and distress their patient. You see it a lot in hospitals but I don’t understand their thinking behind their actions.

Guibhyl · 10/11/2023 12:56

What’s also quite shocking to me is the difference in the way I’ve been treated. They can’t do enough for me. If I asked them to phone my husband for me I’m sure they’d do it in a heartbeat. And this is presumably because I’m not shouting because I’m not deaf and I’m not “old”. They also don’t seem to be trying to obtain any informed consent for anything they’re doing to him, they just do stuff and don’t explain it or ask his permission. He’s also now asking how long until he’s going to be taken home and he keeps shouting the question because no one is responding. If I were to start shouting questions or for help I think they’d come straight over. Everyone just ignores him even when he asks something new, it’s not like he’s been asking the same question for hours despite having the answer explained.

When one of the staff saw me looking over at him she said “sorry is he annoying you do you want me to close his curtain?”. I just said no it’s fine I want him to be able to see people and be able to ask for help.

OP posts:
Guibhyl · 10/11/2023 13:00

@Youthinkyoureuniqueyourejustastatistic im so sorry for your loss but I’m glad he got to meet your baby. I hope you have lots of special memories from that time xx

My dad also died in hospital and I keep looking at this man and thinking how upset I’d be if he were my dad or grandad. It honestly makes me want to cry. The NHS is undoubtedly understaffed and there must be so many older people in particular in hospitals up and down the country who even with the best intentions of the staff, are just being left alone and confused and scared.

OP posts:
HappyHamsters · 10/11/2023 13:09

Poor man, the PALS office might come up to the ward to speak to the staff if you call them. I have seen this too many times as a hcp and its cruel and unnecessary. Is the nurse in charge approachable.

HappyHamsters · 10/11/2023 13:11

His rights are he can expect to be treated with kindness, respect and dignity, not deliberately ignored or be hidden away behind the curtains.

itsmyp4rty · 10/11/2023 13:24

HappyHamsters · 10/11/2023 13:11

His rights are he can expect to be treated with kindness, respect and dignity, not deliberately ignored or be hidden away behind the curtains.

This. But so often it just doesn't happen. Who would want to be at the mercy of the NHS these days. It's such a lottery, there are some absolutely wonderful nurses and others that don't give a crap and can't be assed to do anything - and I think often one rotten apple will often spoil the barrel.

user1497207191 · 10/11/2023 13:28

lionsleepstonight · 10/11/2023 12:23

I think you'd have been right to advocate for him.

Same happened to my dad in hospital. He was 84, but still had full capacity but was treated like a child. Very upsetting and frustrating for him and us.

He's no longer with us, but I'd wish he'd been advocated for while in hospital.

Same with my father. He "looked" old and frail, but that was because of a series of NHS foul ups. Beforehand, he was fit and active, mind absolutely fine. But after being in hospital for a few months whilst they kept misdiagnosing him, he became a shadow of his former self and was basically ignored. My mother, me and my sister had to take it in turns to go and spend all day with him to advocate - we had to be there all day so we didn't miss the doctor's rounds as the nursing staff didn't tell us what they were thinking/doing etc. One night around 2am, he was in a very bad way with pneumonia and we were told to prepare for the worst, but we stood our ground, insisted on seeing the on-call doctor, and persuading him that he wasn't a senile/frail old man and had lots to live for if they actually bothered treating him. The doctor transferred him to ICU and he was put on breathing machine thingie and he survived and ultimately thrived for several more years! Some of the staff just see a wizzened frail old man and assume it's near the end - I wish there was some way of putting up a photo of the patient immediately before their current state to highlight to staff that what they see in front of them isn't what they were like just a few days/weeks earlier!!

Youthinkyoureuniqueyourejustastatistic · 10/11/2023 14:39

user1497207191 · 10/11/2023 13:28

Same with my father. He "looked" old and frail, but that was because of a series of NHS foul ups. Beforehand, he was fit and active, mind absolutely fine. But after being in hospital for a few months whilst they kept misdiagnosing him, he became a shadow of his former self and was basically ignored. My mother, me and my sister had to take it in turns to go and spend all day with him to advocate - we had to be there all day so we didn't miss the doctor's rounds as the nursing staff didn't tell us what they were thinking/doing etc. One night around 2am, he was in a very bad way with pneumonia and we were told to prepare for the worst, but we stood our ground, insisted on seeing the on-call doctor, and persuading him that he wasn't a senile/frail old man and had lots to live for if they actually bothered treating him. The doctor transferred him to ICU and he was put on breathing machine thingie and he survived and ultimately thrived for several more years! Some of the staff just see a wizzened frail old man and assume it's near the end - I wish there was some way of putting up a photo of the patient immediately before their current state to highlight to staff that what they see in front of them isn't what they were like just a few days/weeks earlier!!

Edited

Absolutely this.
im so sorry it happened to your family as well.
Mine went from spritly to bedbound and incontinence within a week. Couldn’t reach his water. No blanket. Wouldn’t let him get out of bed. And then we found out the test he needed he could have had as a bloody outpatient. So so pissed off.

BareGrylls · 10/11/2023 15:24

I really don't see what harm could be caused by the OP helping this poor man.
None of my business is an excuse to make someone feel better rather than helping a fellow human being in distress.
I have been in hospital a lot and also been though it with my parents. Some staff are caring and some are callous.
My neighbour was blue lighted earlier this week and remains in hospital. His wife is 85 but very assertive and articulate. She has been able to advocate for him but only when she is there, which isn't all the time. He has capacity but is too poorly.

@Guibhyl I hope you feel better soon.

Guibhyl · 10/11/2023 16:29

unfortunately I have been moved to another ward now but the man was still there. I keep wondering how he is and hope he’s at home now.

OP posts:
catwithflowers · 10/11/2023 16:56

@Guibhyl My dad is 82 and is also very deaf and quite unwell at the moment. If someone like you had helped him in hospital to get in touch with me I would be forever grateful.

Poor man. I hope his situation is resolved soon.

SilverGlitterBaubles · 10/11/2023 17:05

Sadly all too often older people are just ignored and dismissed. I have seen my otherwise fit and well DF become very distressed in hospital following an operation, the nurses left TV and lights on late into the evening, DF was left in a chair with water and food out of reach while listening to them gossiping and laughing at night. The care aspect of nursing has sadly gone.

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