Body count

[Rpture]

There was a thread trending a few days ago about a Guardian article, Andrew Tate and body counts. Many posters saw no issue with sleeping around.

It got me thinking. Is being promiscuous really as simple as a little fun ? Considering the no.1 reason for divorce in Western societies is infidelity, is that a surprise ? Going from 3-4 short-term butterfly relationships a year to monogamy till death sounds very extreme and kind of boring.

Loved up dead beat dads who wife up a woman and then ditch her for another woman or women. A minority of whom don't even care about their kids, only concerned about their next "fix". In fact, this so normal we even have terms like "The script" to describe such behaviour.

Then there is also pornography, which is a natural continuation of a hyper-sexualised society.

Is it really as simple as having a little fun ?

I'd say pornography is a symptom of a highly male-centric and misogynist society. I don't equate those factors with sexuality, they're more like a caricature of it.

"Hyper-sexualised" usually refers to this exaggerated, warped, cartoonish version whether you're talking about fashion or the sex industry. You seem to be using it also to describe everyday human sexual activity. Humans are like most other animals: we enjoy rutting.

Some humans and animals prefer to save their rutting for a specific, chosen partner (or several) with whom they have a defined relationship. Most like to spread it about a bit. Neither is wrong or bad.

We differ from the rest of the animal kingdom in having a greater degree of conscious choice regarding our own behaviour: as such, it's fairly normal to have cheerfully uncommitted sex before choosing a long-term partner.

On forming a long-term partnership, we enter into a number of agreements and it's usual, at this point, to undertake sexual fidelity. About half the time, that goes wrong. It goes wrong regardless of the partners' previous promiscuity or abstinence.

It's just human nature, or human frailty if you like. Hasn't changed since before records began, and is nothing at all to do with the availability of "hyper-sexualised" media.

If you wish to change it, you're in fr a lot of disappointment!

Is it really as simple as having a little fun ?

Judging by the responses on the other thread, pretty much.

Looove your language: promiscuous, sleeping around. I think your agenda is showing.

Why on earth should someone having had a number of sexual partners find marriage boring? What's your reasoning?

What does pornography have to do with having a number of sexual partners? And where on earth do you get its being a natural continuation of a hper-sexualised society? Porn is very old indeed, so you'll need to make better arguments, indeed any arguments would be nice.

Very disappointed, thought this was about how many bodies you'd like to bury under the patio

Regardless of your feelings about promiscuity, it is (at least for the time being) our right to choose whether or not we sleep around and with whom. Body count is a gross description.

@GarlicGrace Thanks for your insight

1. How is pornography indicative of a misogynistic society ? I can see it being a misogynistic outlet, but society at large ? Women also use it too, no ?
2. Your hyper-sexualised point is interesting. I would extend the cartoonish attitude by veering from an extremely promiscuous outlook to monogamy, which is pretty much failing as an institution. 50% divorce rates are abnormal compared to large parts of the world, and surely that must be indicative of an underlying social issue, no ?
3. "Neither is wrong or bad." - What is your evidence though ? how did you reach that conclusion, and how do we define what is good/bad ?
4. "It goes wrong regardless of the partners' previous promiscuity or abstinence." - This point contradicts the science which suggests otherwise. I can provide sources if you don't want to Google.

My choice of language ? So what ? Keep the insecurities for someone else. People can and do have different world views due to differing cultures, attitudes or religions.

In terms of your argument, Pompeii was also very sexualised, and also had many of the mannerisms we exhibit today. History has a tendency to repeat itself.

Cheers for the reply, @Rpture.

I'm saying that basic animal behaviour can't be wrong per se, any more than eating and sleeping can. The human capacity for conscious choice allows us to set limits, which are generally agreed by societies at various times. These limits overlay meanings of "good" and "bad" on certain elements of behaviour.

There is no scientific agreement on whether humans are a more or less monogamous species or a promiscuous one. We're very restrained compared to bonobos, for instance, but less faithful than some other species. It seems not unlikely that we're actually a mixture: hence this debate, which has also been going on for millennia with no resolution in sight!

You see fewer broken marriages in societies with stricter "morals" because those societies tend to frown on divorce and even singledom. It doesn't mean their marriages are happier or more successful, or even more faithful - though the wives might be if the penalty is imprisonment or torture.

If you disagree that porn is excessively misogynistic, you haven't seen any! Have a flick through pornhub and get back to me on that. No, women don't enjoy it unless they've been psychologically damaged by "hyper-sexualisation". It doesn't even reflect normal, healthy male sexuality. There may well be a porn genre that would work for women, but nobody's ever made any money out of one. That would be a whole other thread (and often is).

For a start no one is "sleeping around". It's an outdated term and there never was much sleeping involved.
Body counts are still for serial killers.
The majority of your post is based on the behaviour of men. We could have "a little fun" but we're still the ones who are judged for doing so.
Clearly the problem here is men. As ever.

Your Pompeii observation's interesting - not least because it shows you can't separate the notion of sexuality from men's obsession with their cocks. Pompeii is covered in penises, not vulvas. It's full of brothel advertisements depicting men fucking women, men fucking men and occasionally men fucking animals.

The wives of Pompeii were strictly regulated: they had to cover up and be chaperoned in public. The brothels were staffed by slaves. They even had a different dress code for prostitutes, including the posh ones ... who were the only women with their own money and any political influence.

Nice try, though.

Isn't "body count" for deaths?

@GarlicGrace Thanks, loads of food for thought.

I think I'll pass on your offer to check those sites. Sexual violence in porn is rife so I do agree it is misogynistic but you miss the point - there is a difference between a misogynistic outlet vs a misogynistic society because that implicitly includes women since they make up 50% of any given society.

I think you miss the point regarding morality too. The issue here isn't really a scientific problem. We construct complex societies and moralistic paradigms regulate our behaviour. If we make assertions about good/bad, then how do we make such judgements ? Why is promiscuity not wrong ? and on what basis do you make that statement ?

As for my main argument allow me to build a premise and you can give me your thoughts.
Imagine human behaviour as a chain of events. Behaviours do not emerge sporadically, but are usually preceded by actions that act as gateways to other actions. E.g. dehumanisation is a precursor to genocide. People don't just engage in a genocide, there are usually precursory actions that lead to these outcomes. To pass your exams is preceded by years of study and so on. Action a opens the door to action b. People who start watching pornography usually start with mild material and then veer onto more extreme stuff.

When we become lax about our moralistic expectation about the regulation of sexual behaviour, this opens the door to promiscuity. Promiscuity normalises the unadulterated expression of sexual activity. This opens the door to porn, What is porn if not people having promiscuous sex out in the open. Pornography would not be possible as a society if we would not tolerate promiscuity morally. Hence why I citied Pompeii. It is a great example of a society that became lax morally, and then socially = A leads to B, leads to C.

If you want to propose that sexual promiscuity doesn't lead to pornography then you need to demonstrate why that isn't the case.

I think it really depends on the reason for having multiple partners. Personal reason/s, I mean.

My "body count" is well over 100, probably more around 150. I am 53. And it has really had a far reaching effect on me.

Like a lot of younger people, I lacked self confidence and my self esteem was pretty low. I confused sex with love. I was extremely good looking in my younger days, to the point where most men were afraid to approach me and, aside from my core group of close friends, most women hated me because they didn't trust me around their men. It was a lonely place to be at times and it really did terrible things to my self esteem. Please don't take this as me doing a humble brag, I'm simply telling the truth.

Any man who dared go near me, I threw myself at him. Particularly 'bad boys', who would 'use and abuse and leave'. I was in a constant merry-go-round of men, swapping one for another, never stopping myself from cheating on boyfriends, etc. I either felt on top of the world because I was wanted, or hideously depressed for being so 'easy' and thinking so little of myself.

Like a lot of women my age, I was brought up believing I was nothing without a man. My mother actually encouraged my behaviour, although she ignored the sex part and insisted on thinking of my liaisons with men as "dates". My Dad was pretty worried, but I was always 'Daddy's little girl" and I'm pretty sure he refused to think about the sex part as well. He just tried to protect me from myself as best he could.

It took me years to understand what I was doing to myself and what I'd already done to myself. Years of therapy to become who I am now, at 53.

I guess I just wanted to say that there are a lot of reasons why people sleep around and that care should be taken to understand the cause and not just the symptom.

I recognise your story, @SmokeyToo, and many of my friends had similar ones. The rest of us didn't, though. I'm older than you; my count is somewhere in the mid-forties. I was in (unilaterally, as it turned out) monogamous relationships for much of that time, so 40 or so pairings took place over about 10 years.

I never did it for validation. Only because I wanted to, I was feeling friendly, it seemed like it could be fun, and even sometimes because I was consumed by overwhelming desire for that particular man at that time. A few times it went pear-shaped and I stopped it, which some women don't seem to realise is an option!

I'm not saying everything was always fabulous. And I have been raped a few times; I'm not counting those as "having sex" because it wasn't me doing it. I'm saying I felt I had full sexual autonomy - and want all women to feel that way.

[Edit] I also want all men to understand that women have sexual autonomy, and aren't just passive recipients. Along those lines, I'd like "consent" to be replaced by "eager participation" or some such phrase that conveys a sense of equal, shared agency.

I don't think women should feel like they have to copy so called male-influenced sexual 'norms' in order to feel empowerment or validation.

@GarlicGrace and @flashbac . I totally understand both of your points of view and experience/s. I guess I just wanted to put it out there that people don't always sleep around because they're enjoying themselves. Don't get me wrong, I totally enjoyed a lot of what I did. But like you, GarlicGrace, I was also either raped or forced to have sex numerous times. Back then, I didn't even think of it as rape - I just complied to get out of whatever situation I'd got myself into.

To be honest, I've had a pretty wild life for one reason or another (largely assisted by having bipolar disorder) and there have been many times that I've looked back on my life and said to myself, "Shit, I'm lucky I'm not dead!" However, although I'm sometimes sad that I treated myself so poorly in my younger days, I really don't have any regrets in life - even my ex husband (or Fuck Face, as he's known in my family!). I kind of think of it all as learning experiences. But I'm so glad that I actually put the work in, in terms of self-discovery and self-awareness, to understand what makes me tick and to be much kinder to myself these days.

@GarlicGrace I think the point @SmokeyToo is making is an interesting case and is precisely my point. Is it just a little fun ? As you have suggested yourself, you were also raped and this is a common occurrence if we consider things like metoo.

The problem is, it's getting worse and I think your argument for consent is weak not because it is wrong but because it's impossible to achieve - There will always be collateral, the problem is, that collateral is getting larger.
As a society we all shouldn't lie, but people still do, we shouldn't steal but people still do. We have removed all moralistic paradigms that regulate sex - there are no guard rails and it's getting messy.

This idea that promiscuity is okay is extremely dangerous for women and an open opportunity for men to exploit.

Are you indicating that men raped me because I'd had sex? How did they know? Don't men rape virgins? You cannot seriously mean rapes are consequences of victim behaviour.

Maybe you meant rapists are influenced by porn? Hardly explains Genghis Khan, does it, or the Old Testament's rules for raiding.

It's unclear why you think it's good for women to deny themselves an important part of normal adult behaviour, how you believe celibacy could prevent rape, or whether men are responsible for their own actions.

You're posting in bad faith, I think. Those who say "Promiscuity's bad for women" are usually members of a patriarchal religion that likes to blame women for men's choices.

@GarlicGrace
Seems like you are resorting to oven baked answers rather than dealing with the points raised. Where did I mention anything about victim blaming. It is dangerous for women because it puts them in very vulnerable situations.

A society that undermines the moralistic paradigms that regulate human sexual behaviour are going to give rise to situations where women are exploited and men are enabled.

Rape is one such consequence, porn is another, infidelity is yet another. You said porn is misogynistic, I demonstrated to you how promiscuity opens the door to pornography. You need to demonstrate otherwise which you don't seem to be doing; instead making accusations of victim blaming.

I don't know why you keep resorting to historical situations. You do realise you are making my point for me.

Besides, this has nothing to do with celibacy.

Is being promiscuous really as simple as a little fun ? Considering the no.1 reason for divorce in Western societies is infidelity,

What has one to do with the other? Having multiple partners does not mean one is also cheating.

That's a good question. It's not about absolutes, its about probabilities. If you enable such behaviour then it increases the probabilities that someone is going to cheat. Not everyone who watches porn will develop violent sexual tendencies, but a sizeable sum will. The same rule applies here - you are going from dating 5-6 people per year to 1 person for the rest of your life. For a significant minority that just doesn't seem to cut it hence the cheating.

well yes the minority should consider if monogamy is really the right choice for them.
Most people can easily have a bit of fun when this fits where they are in their life, and also not cheat when in a relationship.

The problem is its a very large minority, and moving towards a majority.

I seem not to be answering your points where they're vague and incoherent, @Rpture. Let's make this easier: what would be the ideal situation, in your view?

I think many people are seeking the dopamine hit a new sexual experience or relationship gives them. Once the dopamine wears off and they've grown bored with their latest experience, they move on to the next one. Things seem very short term now and perhaps people aren't prepared to put the work in to sustain a long term relationship.

@flufferknutter That's absolutely right, in my opinion.