Family member, autism and time keeping

[Nursenance]

I am asking this because I want to learn.

Currently on a family holiday with adult relative with undiagnosed high functioning autism (this has been suggested by psychiatrist who also tried to explain this may be a trait to family ).

Relative is constantly late. We all try to be patient and give a million prompts. We tell him to meet 15min earlier than we want him there. We ring. We text. Reminders and prompts. We beg him to please be on time. He is always late. So 14 of is go to a restaurant and he arrives half hour late. Its fine to say just order without him but it makes it so awkward and stressful every time.

He gets mad when we prompt him and says "oh I'll just follow on in a bit'...with no acknowledgement of how this messes up the evening for rest of us.

It's not just meals, it's meeting to go out for the day, meeting to do an activity.

He says he just struggles with time and cant think how long stuff takes. I just don't understand how, if he knows he has an issue, why he doesn't just check the time more?

He seems to have zero thought for the impact on rest of the family.

Can anyone relate to this? I try really hard to understand but can't help but get mad with him.

Hes a lovely bloke but just appears to never consider anyone else's plans!

Surely you could jus5 carry on without him and him join later.

Honestly, stop caring. He can miss the starter. It isn’t a resolvable problem so you just need to live your life in the best way possible. It sounds as though you’ve tried hard, that hasn't brought results so just accept him and do whatever it is you need to do to get through your day.

It’s not more awkward to carry on with your plans than delay 14 people and the venue because someone is late

He probably has routines that he has to do before going anywhere! I 100% understand your frustration. Can guarantee that the person taking over my shift will be late for the same reasons .I have complained to management but because he has a disability they have their hands tied .

But if 14 of us going for a meal...do we order? Then all meals come and he arrives when we are all tucking into our starters? Does he order a starter or a main?
It disrupts the meal, stresses out the staff cos meals coming at different times. It's just rude!
If we do an activity, eg: crazy golf, split into teams, start the game, he turns up 5 holes in and wants to play and it messes up the turns and scores.
We want to get taxis to another resort...do we go without him? Is he going to be 5min late or 30min late? Noone knows?

It's constant!

No, it's not as easy as checking the time more. There are so many steps to getting ready and preparing to go out, NT people often do these automatically but ND do not. Each step can have multiple difficulties. There are so many things that could be making it difficult for him.

Despite him wanting to join in, all these things you've suggested can be very overwhelming, and going late means less pressure to stay in an overwhelming environment and decreases sensory overload and exhaustion. He may be deliberately reducing his time at things as it's all he can cope with, hence telling you to get on with things.

Nagging to hurry up makes it much worse, by increasing overwhelm and panic which have a negative impact of executive function, and anxiety from demand avoidance.

You'd be better to kindly explain the reasons it effects you. Autism is a disability and requires adjustments. People wouldn't be annoyed at someone in a wheelchair not being able to do or go to certain places.

Yes, autism is lifelong and it's difficulties are fairly constant, although fluctuate based on support and other stressors.

You just go with the flow.

He misses the starter as PP says (the staff won’t care), tags into a team in crazy golf (so what if it messes up the score, it’s crazy golf not the World Cup!), and go to the other resort without him after 10 mins grace (he could get a taxi on his own if he wants to follow on, or just stay by himself).

For things that matter, eg getting a flight, someone stays with him to make sure he is there. And plenty of time is built in to allow this.

But none of your examples matter at all! Far, far easier to change your perspective than to change his timekeeping.

You just need to stop caring. Lessen the prompting, this is not your problem to solve, it’s his. Just give one verbal notification an hour or two beforehand (longer prep time may help), ask him to think about what he needs to do beforehand, tell him to set a phone alarm or Alexa alarm for himself. Go and eat as arranged, don’t wait for him and let him sort his own order out on arrival. You carry on enjoying your meal. It maybe a disaster initially but after a few meals he should have worked out that he’s responsible for himself and timing may improve or not. The most important thing is that you’re stepping back and the meal is stress free.

Lifts/taxis/trains/visits to events or places. Prompt him only once a couple of hours beforehand to set his Alexa or phone alarm, ask him to consider the things he needs to do before leaving the house. Ask him to think about a back up plan as everyone will be prompt leaving. Leave as planned at the prearranged time. Get on and enjoy your day. Let him organise himself while you have fun and remain disengaged with faffing on his part. If mobile one text would suffice, enabling him to catch up ‘we will be at a x place at x time’

crazy golf. Prompt him once a couple of hours beforehand, ask him to set alarms or Alexa. Leave as planned. Start activity without him. If he joins later, add him to the worst performing team as a fun wild card. I personally couldn’t get upset about this.

Oh, I most definitely empathise with the frustration of chronically late people.

But you sound really rigid and overly distressed by the very slightest disruption. Honestly, in a way that reminds me of some people I know on the spectrum (I only mention this because you mention a possible family link), but with or without ASD/ASD traits, still unnaturally high-strung.

You're on holiday! Unless your family are all pretty neurotic, I don't think anyone is feeling that competitive over the crazy golf scores and turns. Just let him join the worst performing team, or let him watch.

Likewise for the restaurant – just let him order whatever, why is it an issue? I can absolutely promise you that the staff are not in the least bit stressed over it. If they're stressed, they're probably picking up and reflecting your vibes at the table. Meals usually come at different times to all tables. Plus, even if everyone arrived at the same time, someone might add on another dish order midway through. It's not a dinner party with a host. The whole point of a restaurant is diners coming and going all the time, you know :)

The only one I think would bring about genuine stress and upset would be the taxi one. In that case I would set a max waiting time (eg 15 mins), and beyond that waiting time, leave it to him to sort his own transport plans or sit out that day's activities. Not in a mean/punishing way, but in a way that keeps it low stress for him and for us.

Then he needs to be told it's messing up the meal/game/activity/taxis and that it may be best if he doesn't come until he can be there on time.

It's selfish behaviour and he needs to be made aware of others. So far he has been tolerated too well.... that's why he keeps doing it.

What does he do when he has to get a bus, train or flight?

It doesn't sound like this autism is very 'high functioning' if he can't turn up on time.... at anytime, every time, all the time.

He can't keep allowing this trait to impact others. He needs to accept responsibility.

What will happen for medical appointments? The dentist?

Autism is a disability. It's not possible to be 'less autistic' to fit in with external demands.

If you had a relative with dementia or who was a wheelchair user would you be able to make reasonable adjustments to include them? Or would you tailor joint activities to accommodate their needs and do others - hill walking/VR escape rooms - with those family members who are able to manage the activities as scheduled?

I have autism and this is my take on the situation:

He doesn’t want to go.

He finds being around 14 people absolutes overwhelming so stays behind so he can have a hour to himself in silence to unwind.

Then he joins when he’s suitably calm and his mind is rested.

He simply finds being with that many people for an extended time too much. It exhausts him and make him anxious and he needs ‘breaks’.

Right. Then he needs to be honest and tell people this. They would have more sympathy.

Perhaps the OP can coax the truth out of him.

External demands? That would be life in general then.

People are tolerant - but only up until a point. We all have our limits until we say no more.

I'm not a believer in the tail wagging the dog.

Tell him 1 hour before if he's always 1 hour late.

Executive function skills are often poor in people who are ND.

He may find he needs extra warning and if you say 12 and mean 1 and he's still late then you know there's an element of control in the situation and just carry on.

@jenpil it's not that childishly simple re being "selfish", "truth" vs lies ("coaxing" truth = seriously childish concept)... There can be a lot of internal and social pressure to turn up, mixed emotions and coping with sensory overload, plus throw in genuine difficulties with things like transition time, decision making, time perception, etc.

being on holiday disrupts routines and makes time management much harder.

he could be an astrophysicist or an neurosurgeon, but if he has ASD he might still struggle with some of the simple life activities other people find easy.

I manage when I travel by being hyper organized and having ridiculous lists with detailed itineraries and backup information.

you aren’t responsible for him. I would give him the itinerary in writing as far in advance as possible, text is fine, and let him handle it. Do not give critical information only verbally.

I don't see how this is the same at all, I think unless it important like missing a flight the group can just carry on

Picking mini gold for example, a wheelchair user may not be physically be able to play but if autism makes a person unable to time keep they are still able to play

A whole holiday with a large group cannot be catered around one person whose sole issue affecting others is just lack of time keeping ability, they can order with the person, they can start a game etc.

I worked very hard, over more than a decade, to successfully make my lifelong ADHD chronic lateness/time blindness much less of an issue.

It sounds like you're just on holiday, so I don't think you can do much. However, if you were a regular part of his daily life and you did want to help – which you're not obliged to – you could use well-known ADHD and ASD strategies. These are the methods I consistently used/use on myself:

• Visual timers (not ordinary timers but visual ones)
• Cue/story cards for routines and schedules
• Transition times and symbols
• Elaborate night-before preparation routines
• Working on accurate time tracking (multiply expected length of tasks by 3x)
• Decision criteria & flowcharts
• Factoring in hours of buffer time to get lost if dyspraxia and navigation is an issue/ for sensory overwhelm
• Social anxiety scripts, coping mechanisms, and planned escape route
• Timestamp recording apps
• and so on and so forth... I used all of the above, every single one.

I went from being literally hours late to usually punctual. Though, with lots of effort and planning for each appointment, and factoring in a ridiculous amount of buffer time that I inevitably use up. I genuinely aim to leave the house at 6am for an 8 am appointment with a 30 min commute time, and end up reaching at 7.45am anyway.

I'm admittedly still 5-30 mins late on (guilty, panicked, self-hating) occasion, but it's definitely not constant and daily like in the past.

I consider it a personal achievement, but I know not everyone has that capability or privilege. They could have worse ADHD or ASD, or might not be able to afford resources and coaching and so on. Unlike me, they may also not be able to afford a decade's worth of practise before their life spirals downwards, and obviously their life skills too.

By the way, the coaching was funded by my uni. On the accuracy of 'high functioning', I easily obtained a doctorate from one of the most prestigious unis in the UK, but I still had to work hard at executive functioning skills for over a decade. Many high-performing scientists and so on struggle with executive functioning too. It's by no means a measure of academic intelligence.

I don't think people are obliged to bend over backwards for us, but I think a spiteful hate train is uncalled for. I think people like @jenpil don't understand the hatred, struggle and self loathing that come from not being able to participate in daily life or society.

You want us to opt of society, which we do. Statistics strongly reflect our social isolation. National UK and US surveys show over and over again that people with ADHD/ASD are many times more likely to kill themselves than "normal" people. Suicide is 5 times more likely (14% vs 2.7%) for people with ADHD in all age groups, and 7 times more likely for ASD. Sounds like all selfish fun and games indeed!

At the restaurant you all order. He sorts himself out when he turns up. Wait staff will be used to it, there's always people running late.

Crazy golf if youre in teams he just joins the smaller team or the winners/losers depending on if he's a handicap or an advantage.

Taxis - someone needs to go and see what he's doing and make a decision whether he's joining you or not and tell him what that decision is "we'll wait 5 minutes while you grab your stuff" and then wait with him while he does that or "we're off to the other resort now, we'll see you later".

My brother likes a lie in and my parents will creep around like mice waiting to see if he's going to get up and join in with our rapidly dwindling day out. Just ask! "Are you coming? We're going now. Yeah, right now. The taxis are here. Ok, you're not ready. Don't worry! We'll either see you back here or you can join us when you're ready. You can call X to find out where we are". I can't stand lateness and hanging around waiting for people.

We have a family member like this, it is not easy for them at all. Inability to arrive on time is a very typical feature of autism /ADHD and it’s unfair to think that they will suddenly start being on time just because you want them to be, or because it’s more socially appropriate.
We no longer stress over it, unless it’s an extremely important occasion eg a wedding, a funeral or a medical appointment. If they turn up late to a restaurant then so be it, they just eat out of sync with everyone else - their company is more important than arriving exactly on time. The staff will be used to it, it’s not unusual for someone to arrive late.
Crazy golf, if there are as many as 14 people playing, surely someone would just swap with them for the rest of the round or something?
It all sounds a bit intense to me.
Thank you for your excellent post @adhdgirly, the statistics about the increased suicide risk are sobering, but sadly, don’t surprise me.

Thank you everyone. I know he does have anxiety and struggle with 'life'.

I think what I'm struggling to understand is how his brain works. I genuinely don't understand what he is doing that makes him so late.
I get the needing time away from us.

But for example, we will say at 5pm..we are meeting at 8pm. What is his thought process to only then be ready at 9pm?
And to not feel guilty for not being there. Its like his is oblivious that he is so late?

As a family we are trying to understand so that we stop getting frustrated.

The fewer demands you make on him the better. That's counter-intuitive though! So actually reduce the prompts, reduce the reminders, reduce the anxiety. Be bright and breezy and adjust accordingly - so if he misses the taxi, he has to get his own, if he misses the start of the meal, he needs to order for himself when he gets there.

One clear instruction (we're leaving at 5) and one prompt (a text at 430) is enough and I suspect will actually improve the situation. Also keep it low key when he eventually does join you - sarcasm can be really difficult for ASD people, if we're sarcastic around my son it's like nails on a blackboard for him - and he may hate a huge fuss. Thinking 'there's going to be a huge fuss cos I'm late' leads to a spiral that makes him even later.

In other words, everyone just needs to chill.

I’m not sure you realise how hard that can be

I need to tell a bunch of ND people I don’t want to go on a night out, I’m ND too but of a different type. In theory they should all understand as they all understand the conditions and actually work in Neurodiversity. However I’m still really struggling to tell them!