HMRC are gaslighting me, please help

[manyunansweredquestions]

I realise the phrasing sounds extreme but I don't know how else to put it.

I work for a large organisation and was previously employed in a role that 100s of other people were also. Said role involved training expenses that were payable by us and taxable. Long story short I know 10s of people that successfully claimed back these expenses, and even if I didn't, the criteria for which expenses have to meet to be eligible match the circumstances of mine.

So I first claimed a year ago (P87), there was initially no option to attach evidence so it was straight away rejected - fine, I anticipated this. I wrote to them providing evidence as well as a cover letter, and after three months received a response that it was still being rejected, describing the training inaccurately and not as per the contract of employment I sent. I wrote back to them to highlight their errors in understanding and the correspondence went entirely ignored. I then wrote to them again and have once again had it rejected, citing reasons that aren't true ("the training wasn't integral to my role", despite it being a term of my employment, etc).

They are flat out denying facts despite me providing evidence to that effect, hence me describing it as gaslighting. And now I really don't know what else I can do as I don't have anything further to provide for evidence because my evidence already is as clear as you'd get.

Please help MN. The sum is £500 and I'm on maternity leave so I really need it.

Government departments do not gaslight anybody. Nobody at HMRC has spent any time thinking about to make your life worse and cover their tracks. If you are not happy with their response you make a complaint. That’s how bureaucracy works.

Have you called them? It takes ages to get through but they’re usually helpful in person when you do.

What are the training expenses you’re claiming?

Why isn’t your employer paying the expenses for training critical to your role?

Said role involved training expenses that were payable by us and taxable.

I can't make sense of this - how can an expense that you have paid from your own pocket be taxable - its not income, but expenditure.

Whether the incurred expense is allowable as a relief from tax is another matter. The expense has to be incurred wholly, necessarily and exclusively in the performance of your employment.

Why is this an expense that you are paying and not your employer? Why is your employer not reimbursing you directly so you are not out of pocket?

@Malarandras I have complained, twice. The outcome has remained the same, that they're insisting the training wasn't essential in essence. When my [training] contract states the training is mandatory, I'm not sure how it can be interpreted as being optional. Regardless of whether "gaslighting" is the right term, which I did explain why I used that word, they are repeatedly denying something I have proven to be true.

@NoSquirrels i have called them multiple times between writing in. They have been really reasonable on the phone and the representatives I've spoken to all say it does sound like I should be able to claim, but because it's being dealt with by a "specialist team", they cannot make any decisions or definitive statements themselves. They're university fees for a course, in that specific capacity, only exists to facilitate this role. This isn't a course Joe Bloggs can apply for, you get enrolled onto it as part of your employment. I hope that makes sense?

The expense has to be incurred wholly, necessarily and exclusively in the performance of your employment.

And this is exactly what it was, and what I have demonstrated to them with my contract.

It was taxable because it was deducted from my net pay by my employer. Why me and not my employer, well I imagine because it'd cost them too much to fund 100s of people through the course so the employees have to pay themselves. This is all in my contract. 🙁

There are very strict rules about training course tax relief, for both self employed and employed.

For other posters: as an employee under PAYE, there are some training courses that you have to pay for, out of your own pocket, and you can claim a tax relief.
It looks like the Op has done the right thing, filled in a P87 and provided evidence.

However, as I say the rules are very strict.
It doesn't matter "that other people have manged to get it back" because you don't really know what has happened.

In your case @manyunansweredquestions, HMRC have reviewed your P87 and your evidence and made the decision that your training costs are not allowable.

Did you receive a letter explaining the decision?
If so, does it quote the legislation/guidance of why your training doesn't fall within the rules of tax relief?

Have they provided you an opportunity to appeal?

Some decisions can be appealed, but I'm not sure if this one is.
My advice is to call and ask for a written explanation, if you don't have one already, and ask if you can appeal and ask for a review of the decision.

They're university fees for a course, in that specific capacity, only exists to facilitate this role.

Then your employer should be reimbursing you for the fees!

I can see why HMRC are refusing your claim. The fees you are paying are enabling you to do your job, not incurred BY doing your job.

Rather like expenses incurred in travelling to your place of work. You have to get there to do the work but that expense does not qualify for tax relief as it is not incurred DOING your work.

HMRC disagreeing with you is not gaslighting, FFS.

If it's being dealt with by a specialist team, can't you wait for them to make a final decision?

When I had a ridiculous row with HMRC about five years ago, I got my MP involved and he soon shut them down. Depends on your MP though......

They are flat out denying facts despite me providing evidence to that effect, hence me describing it as gaslighting

Wish people wouldn’t throw the term round so casually without really knowing what it means. Someone disagreeing with you is not gaslighting.

It was taxable because it was deducted from my net pay by my employer

No, that's not a taxation. Your employer is deducting these fees from your pay, nothing to do with HMRC.

So your employer has either paid the course fees and is recouping the cost from you, or the fees are being recovered by your employer at the behest of the course administrator. Again, nothing to do with HMRC.

I am intrigued by what the "row"was about where an MP (who are not known for much common sense let alone expertise in income tax) won an argument against HMRC!?

I'm agog! Please do tell me more!

Just because HMRC does not agree with you, they are not gaslighting you

Using the term in such a throwaway manner is disrespectful and minimises the trauma of those who genuinely are gaslit

If the training is compulsory the company should be picking up the cost of it - most training costs cannot be reclaimed on a P87

Totally agree with other comments, not really a HMRC issue.

That system is for getting the tax back, not the total training costs back. HMRC are not going to give you £500 if that is how much you spent on training, but say if you had to pay for an expense as part of your role that cost £60, with 20% tax you’d claim on that and get £12 back. Not £60.

Malarandras you are wrong re HMRC. Years ago I had a visit from one of their employees re an underpayment of £43.00 which she asked for in cash ( pre debit card payments) as I didn’t have the actual £sd about the house she said she’d send a further request by post with a penalty charge - she told me in a very vindictive tone that HMRC live people like us as they can ‘squeeze and harass’ us and it fit her out of the office. Very coincidentally a few years later same woman is at an event I was at - she had a side hustle selling lingerie and dog breeding - both totally forbidden by Civil Service at the time - naturally she was reported ☘️👍🏿 of course they try to negatively impact peoples’ lives

Surely they don't make the call on whether the training was necessary or not?

My understanding of the rules is that training that newly qualifies you to do a job is not an allowable expense, but top up/refresher/CPD training, once qualified, is.
Otherwise people would be offsetting their entire university costs against their tax liability.

Do you mean HMRC as "they"?

As I posted upthread, the question to be answered is was this expense incurred in the performance of her duties as an employee, actually doing the job, or is it to enable her to do the job. Crucial difference.

I used to get regular attempts to claim costs of clothing for work.
You have to wear clothes for warmth and to avoid arrest for indecency, but those costs enable you to work, not incurred doing the work (your job is not to wear clothes).
Clothing is allowed where it is specifically for that role (I.e chefs whites) or safety (steel capped boots).

There is so much wrong in this (and outright made up utter bollocks) I don't know where to start! Or even bother replying.......🙄

BMW** yes that's who I meant.

I can understand how it feels like gaslighting. I certainly think HMRC take the piss from time to time through poor systems, staff not being properly trained or incompetent.

I had to pay some Higher Income child benefit related tax back - OK I could have looked at the rules more closely but the fact they wrote to me and told me to stop doing tax returns when I was on PAYE certainly didn't help and considerably muddied the waters. Also my income varied quite a bit as I did a lot of short term interim contracts. So I paid back what they said I owed. Then about a week later I just happened to check my account to make sure payment had gone through, and bugger me I owed another £150 and had only a few days to pay it. They hadn't emailed or phoned or written to me about the additional amount and I could have so easily missed it and incurred a penalty. That was back in 2020 too, didn't exactly need the additional anxiety about whether I was going to have to pay back even more and having to check my tax account every week in case there was something else they hadn't told me about, even though I was on PAYE and my affairs should be pretty straightforward!

They have also properly arsed about with my DM, who is 83, over a few quid here and there. She has a small personal pension which takes her only slightly over the personal allowance and into having to pay a small amount of income tax. The number of times they have recalculated, telling her she owes this, then something else in another letter next week, or telling her she has to pay something she paid months ago is absolutely shocking, and has caused her no small amount of worry and through now fault of her own. Particularly after my DF died in 2019, who also had a pretty low income- seemed to send HMRC into a fucking tailspin and there were letters every few weeks.

So in a few years I've gone from always being happy to pay my share and very supportive of income tax and HMRC's work, to thinking they can just fuck right off.

Can you get your HR department to send you a letter confirming that failure to do the course will be grounds for removing you from your current role ( or at least end up restricting ability work unsupervised etc. while doing your role)?

And get the course provider to do a confirmation that your employer has to approve your application?
If the course is tax deductable the provider will normaly may have the specific tax code sections you need to quote. Even if they dont it is in their commercial interest to help resolve this as HMRC should be rejection all claims from this course. (If the team is an audit section this may be what is in the process of happening and other students will also be rejected)

I'm sorry, but as others have said, this is not a tax issue and nothing to do with HMRC

You have said that the fees for the course are taken off your pay after tax and Insurance have been deducted from your Gross salary ( so from your net salary). This was something you had to pay, but instead of them asking for the full figure to be paid up front by you independently, they are allowing you to pay it up in stages.

My employers used to allow me to 'borrow' an amount to allow me to purchase an Annual Train Pass ( cheapest way to travel to work for me), every year, so that I could go to work, and then it was taken back from my Monthly Salary over the following 11 months. What you are describing is exactly the same scenario.

You cannot possibly know why others 'appear' to have succeeded where you have failed as you cannot know all the other people's circumstances. From what you have said it is very unlikely that others HAVE succeeded where you haven't.