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HS2 yay or nay?

138 replies

BloodyHellKen · 25/09/2023 10:04

With the recent discussion re: HS2 all over the news I've been wondering what the general consensus is and MN seems like a good place to start.

Do people feel it should:
a) have been stopped years ago
b) stopped now
c) completed

Personally I think it should have been stopped years ago as I always suspected it was a lot of money for very little gain (in fact I wouldn't even have started it). The money could have been better spent elsewhere IMO (eg a reliable service from Liverpool to Leeds via Manchester) and I don't understand why both Labour and Conservatives have been so wedded to it.

Anyone?

OP posts:
beguilingeyes · 06/10/2023 13:18

He's acting like he's been made king or something. How can someone who was nobody's first choice for PM, with no mandate just do what he likes? All those years of planning thrown aside on one man's whim.

Seychal · 06/10/2023 14:06

newnamethanks · 06/10/2023 12:46

HS2 buys your house, having settled price. You sell whether you want to or not. You pay Captain Gains Tax on the sale. HS2 doesn't want the house now and you can't afford to buy it back. Here comes Chipping Norton and friends.

That’s not how it works.

if you are a homeowner and occupier you don’t pay CGT. If you stayed in occupation no issues. If you sold in the meantime you’ve bought a new home so no worse off.

if you were a BTL landlord you get the house back if tenant doesn’t want it. If you take the cash there is no CGT either - rollover on compulsory purchase of land applies.

if it’s farmland it goes back to the farmer. Similar rules for other commercial land.

The Chipping Norton set are not interested in pursuing properties dotted along the original line of phase 2. Much, much too small and they don’t have pre-emotion rights and the land has no development value now.

Phase 1 development rights will be snapped up by existing landowners funded by a range of backers - most likely quoted investment trusts and REITS. Much too big for the Chipping Norton set.

Badbadbunny · 06/10/2023 19:33

I hope there are some serious improvements in the North, i.e. Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, York, Newcastle. Today has been a shambles. Trains cancelled all over the place, long delays, etc. HS2 wouldn't have helped with any of that as the problems are East<>West across the Pennines, not North<>South up each side. We need new lines between the main cities, some decent rolling stock (Not London cast offs), operating companies that can actually employ enough staff to run the services, etc.

randomhair · 06/10/2023 19:39

I live in a village about 10 miles from where it would have been passing through and was naively (selfishly?!) hoping that once the Londoners realised they could commute to work from the North in almost the same time as it takes them to commute from the Home Counties to the city, plus you get incredible properties here for hundreds of thousands of pounds less....that well, we'd get a property boom here.

I know, I know, flawed logic and selfish reasoning which I have now revised. The line just isn't worth the billions of pounds of money and the reality is, tickets will probably be prohibitively expensive (to help recoup costs) so I can't see it being profitable or to be honest, people even wanting to use it.

Badbadbunny · 06/10/2023 19:53

Cramlington567 · 04/10/2023 22:50

Can't believe how misunderstood HS2 is/was. This thread highlights it.

It was all about improving local and regional train services by taking the west coast mainline train off the same track so they can run more local train services.

It was about using more freight trains to take Trucks off motorways and ease road congestion.

They messed up the name on inception. It was not about cutting journey times between Manchester and London.

Cannot improve local train services if there is no capacity and the local trains have to constantly wait/get delayed to let faster trains pass.

They "could" have done all that by having a "normal" railway line, i.e. normal speeds, that wouldn't have had to be so straight, and would have been many billions cheaper and much quicker to build. There was never the need for "High Speed" for such a short distance. There were still old trackbeds for disused railways lines (great central) that could have been brought back into use for parts of a normal speed line equivalent.

Unfortunately, everyone jumped on the high speed element, rather than the extra capacity element, and the rest is history.

It was also pretty stupid to have HS2 that didn't actually link to HS1 so we were never going to have direct trains from the North to Europe either, which was another massive failure at the planning stage!

DdraigGoch · 06/10/2023 22:23

Badbadbunny · 06/10/2023 19:53

They "could" have done all that by having a "normal" railway line, i.e. normal speeds, that wouldn't have had to be so straight, and would have been many billions cheaper and much quicker to build. There was never the need for "High Speed" for such a short distance. There were still old trackbeds for disused railways lines (great central) that could have been brought back into use for parts of a normal speed line equivalent.

Unfortunately, everyone jumped on the high speed element, rather than the extra capacity element, and the rest is history.

It was also pretty stupid to have HS2 that didn't actually link to HS1 so we were never going to have direct trains from the North to Europe either, which was another massive failure at the planning stage!

No they couldn't. The cost of building a conventional railway would only have been 9% less and there would have been no opportunity for modal shift from air travel.

Forget using the Great Central, it doesn't go where anyone needs it to go. You can't use it to get to London because that section is still open and is very busy. It goes nowhere near Birmingham, and is one heck of a long way around to get to Manchester, never mind Scotland.

Once open, HS2 would have been very profitable (Intercity always was), and would eventually have repaid its cost. Now the PM has come up with a list of branch lines in marginal constituencies. If they ever do reopen (was that a pig flying past the window) they will just be a loss-making liability for the railway.

beguilingeyes · 06/10/2023 23:28

Badbadbunny · 06/10/2023 19:33

I hope there are some serious improvements in the North, i.e. Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, York, Newcastle. Today has been a shambles. Trains cancelled all over the place, long delays, etc. HS2 wouldn't have helped with any of that as the problems are East<>West across the Pennines, not North<>South up each side. We need new lines between the main cities, some decent rolling stock (Not London cast offs), operating companies that can actually employ enough staff to run the services, etc.

If you think the Tories will do any of that I have a bridge to sell you.

Badbadbunny · 07/10/2023 07:30

beguilingeyes · 06/10/2023 23:28

If you think the Tories will do any of that I have a bridge to sell you.

No, I don't believe Labour will improve things either. At least Rishi isn't quite so rabid anti-car so people in the north may still have the option of driving rather than relying on such a crap public transport system.

Seychal · 07/10/2023 07:51

There were still old trackbeds for disused railways lines (great central) that could have been brought back into use for parts of a normal speed line equivalent.

Most of that line north of London has reverted back to nature. Tunnels contain bats and there are sections that have become blocked off as nature reserves or used for leisure. Parts would make great cycleways but they do not really go anywhere. GCR was a major defeat in the House of Commons in 1996.

The House will appreciate that the carrying of the tractor unit in addition to the load is not an efficient way to transport freight. The line has been disused for some 30 years.

In some parts, it has been become a nature reserve and a public amenity. In others, factories and housing estates have been built over its site. Were the reopening to go forward, enormous environmental damage would occur.

Many houses have been built and bought in the knowledge that a disused railway line is close by and while Central Railway claims that it has a property protection scheme, it admits that it has no money to acquire properties or to meet any statutory blight notices. That was the point made by my right hon. Friend the Member for Tonbridge and Malling (Sir J. Stanley) in his powerful speech. Many hundreds, if not thousands, of homes and businesses face a future that at best might be described as uncertain.

This is one of those rare occasions in the life of the House when there is general agreement between the three major parties. It is significant that the Labour and Liberal parties have come out strongly in opposition to the development.

My hon. Friend the Minister said that the Government are, and must be, strictly impartial because of their quasi-judicial role. However, Back Benchers do not have to be impartial. One has only to look around the Chamber to see the growing opposition to this crack-brained scheme and the number of Conservative Members who will oppose it in the Lobby tonight.

beguilingeyes · 07/10/2023 13:06

Badbadbunny · 07/10/2023 07:30

No, I don't believe Labour will improve things either. At least Rishi isn't quite so rabid anti-car so people in the north may still have the option of driving rather than relying on such a crap public transport system.

The difference being that Labour haven't promised to do it. Half of Rishi's list of alternate places the money will go have either already been built (Manchester Airport Link) or were promised years ago and show no sign of being done.
Anti-car?

DdraigGoch · 07/10/2023 19:47

Badbadbunny · 07/10/2023 07:30

No, I don't believe Labour will improve things either. At least Rishi isn't quite so rabid anti-car so people in the north may still have the option of driving rather than relying on such a crap public transport system.

Whose fault is it that TPE fell apart? That would be the government.

nocoolnamesleft · 07/10/2023 20:00

Bramshott · 25/09/2023 10:14

IMO they've built the wrong bit - they should have started with the high speed lines from Manchester & Leeds to Birmingham. But what they do now god only knows - glad it's not my decision to make!!

Yep. And if they'd started with that bit, no way they'd be stopping now.

DdraigGoch · 08/10/2023 14:21

nocoolnamesleft · 07/10/2023 20:00

Yep. And if they'd started with that bit, no way they'd be stopping now.

I wouldn't be so sure with the current rabble. Sunak apparently still remains opposed to getting the line into Zone 1, evidently thinks that terminating seven miles out of London will be fine. Apparently Hunt is the one arguing for completion to Euston.

Gilligan is the one responsible for this.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/27/andrew-gilligan-ex-johnson-adviser-said-to-have-sunaks-ear-on-hs2

Andrew Gilligan: ex-Johnson adviser said to have Sunak’s ear on HS2

Former BBC journalist who has a gift for persuasion has reportedly always been 100% opposed to rail project

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/27/andrew-gilligan-ex-johnson-adviser-said-to-have-sunaks-ear-on-hs2

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