Page 4 | A mini roundabout driving question ...

GeorgeSpeaks · 2023-09-20T18:43:24+00:00

I was honked at the other day for dithering/giving way on a mini roundabout. Was I wrong? I was approaching the roundabout and signalling right, opposite me another car was not signalling, so going straight on. I slowed down to let him go because I would have to cross his path to get to my exit and therefore he has right of way. Obviously if he were on my right he'd also have right of way. Anyway, car behind me honked because I hesitated to let opposite car across before I turned right. Who is correct, me or honker?

WrigglyDonCat · 21/09/2023 13:42

ColleenDonaghy · 21/09/2023 10:50

Exactly @WomanInTheWall23 , they're equally to each other's right (and left) and have equal right of way.

Absolutely not. Ask yourself the question would the TP ever be able to hit the drivers side of the OP? If not, they are not on the OPs right in terms of roundabouts.

Whereas the OP very much could hit the drivers side of the TP, so the OP is approaching from the TPs right and gets priority.

donquixotedelamancha · 21/09/2023 14:09

WrigglyDonCat · 21/09/2023 13:36

@WomanInTheWall23

No we both have exactly the same situation in our minds. Just you haven't quite understood how mini-roundabouts work I'm afraid.

It really isn't a stalemate - that exists when all cars have someone who can approach from their right that in principle they should give way to, which isn't the case here.

There is no-one for the OP to give way to because no-one will approach from their right (excluding a failure to signal from the TP) as you can see from the path for the TP marked on the diagram. But once on the roundabout the OP is coming from the TPs right as their crossing paths show.

Therefore the priority obligation is on the TP to make sure they can either get past the position shown before the OP needs to cross their path or they should give way to the OP. It's exactly the same as a larger roundabout. If you enter a roundabout and cause a person who will approach from your right to slow down or change direction etc., you should stop.

The OPs obligation is to make sure that they aren't entering so fast that they can't slow/stop if the TP enters unwisely. But they absolutely should enter with their speed at a suitable level.

This is an absolutely fantastically clear post but is anyone else slightly terrified that so many people have had to explain something so simple to such a ridiculous degree?

donquixotedelamancha · 21/09/2023 14:11

TruthSeeker2023 · 21/09/2023 13:41

This sort of thing is happening more and more. As roads have got busier, older drivers haven't been able to keep up with the pace of change, especially as lots of them stopped driving during lockdown. Now we're always getting stuck behind people who don't seem to have a clue what's going on around them. The sooner they bring in more driving tests for elderly drivers the better.

Roundabouts have always worked like this. I don't think the problem on this thread is elderly drivers, I think it's people who have not read the highway code and insist their idiosyncrasies take priority over the law.

Maybe we should be retesting drivers every decade?

WomanInTheWall23 · 21/09/2023 16:57

Thanks @WrigglyDonCat; I hope, if you're a driving instructor or an examiner as you've hinted at, you're not as condescending to your students.

And what if TP is in fact not going straight on and instead is turning right but didn't signal, or their indicator is broken? How do they know how fast the OP is going to advance (in reference to your point about their option to get to the point where it would matter because OP is going to turn across them)?

And for the record, I don't disagree that the OP can and should enter with their speed at the appropriate level - stalemate doesn't mean they should both sit their forever. If they do it at a suitable pace they can actually both enter at the same time and by the time OP has got round to the 12 o'clock to 3'clock section, which is the only place the conflict would occur, the TP will be gone. The point I was trying to make is that the OP needed to proceed with caution and therefore the person behind her using their horn was being unreasonable.

WrigglyDonCat · 21/09/2023 17:32

WomanInTheWall23 · 21/09/2023 16:57

Thanks @WrigglyDonCat; I hope, if you're a driving instructor or an examiner as you've hinted at, you're not as condescending to your students.

And what if TP is in fact not going straight on and instead is turning right but didn't signal, or their indicator is broken? How do they know how fast the OP is going to advance (in reference to your point about their option to get to the point where it would matter because OP is going to turn across them)?

And for the record, I don't disagree that the OP can and should enter with their speed at the appropriate level - stalemate doesn't mean they should both sit their forever. If they do it at a suitable pace they can actually both enter at the same time and by the time OP has got round to the 12 o'clock to 3'clock section, which is the only place the conflict would occur, the TP will be gone. The point I was trying to make is that the OP needed to proceed with caution and therefore the person behind her using their horn was being unreasonable.

I'm definitely a driving instructor - I'm way too bad at following corporate rules to be an examiner - they'd sack me within days.

And all my students will tell you I'm lovely - otherwise they'd get a zap from the cattle prod to keep them in line.

And the answer to your question is slightly complex as it depends on exact timings and whether the third party follows the correct path around the roundabout, how they position the car, what exact speed they enter the roundabout etc. I can only control their expectations of my actions with my signal, my course and my speed - I need to make sure that all of these give a clear sign of my intentions at the roundabout. After that I just have to judge their reaction to my approach.

The only time in principle that a lack of right signal would be a problem is if they got to the roundabout a little ahead of me. Then I might assume they are going ahead, start to enter, then have either a collision or a near miss. But I am weighing their speed and position - in particular speed - if they are going ahead they would probably be going faster. If they are unusually slow, alarm bells will be ringing that they are turning right without a signal, and speed is duly reduced until I'm happy I know what they are doing.

If we are arriving at about the same time, we should be able, on all but the smallest mini roundabouts, to do an offside-offside turn about each other even if I am not suspecting the unsignalled right turn. But I'm also suspicious of the people who cut the centre of mini roundabouts. So this is where closely watching position pays off. Now my first warning of trouble is likely to be a deflection towards my left, again speed reduction until certainty established.

If I'm arriving slightly ahead of them, I take control of the situation by being on the roundabout ahead of them (but still monitoring their speed on approach to ensure it's consistent with them giving way to me correctly).

WomanInTheWall23 · 21/09/2023 17:40

Sorry to have wasted your time - mine were rhetorical questions (to which I knew the answers, which were as you gave them). My point was the need for caution, which you've confirmed, reading the clues of speed, judging intention, etc. plus my original point which remains, that if you're both sitting there at the entrance to the roundabout, not moving and without knowing what the other one will do, you're both to the right of each other. But you know that too, so we're done here I think.

JaneIntheBox · 21/09/2023 18:53

GeorgeSpeaks · 20/09/2023 22:38

But I wasn't on the roundabout! We both arrived at the lines at the same time, hence the hesitation! It's only a little one too, so I didn't want to crash into anyone.

Anyway, I'll get over the honking eventually.

Look OP we have 3 scenarios:

You both set off at the same time. No crash. They go straight and you will be behind them. If you are driving at the same speed and think of the roundabout as a clock. They are 12 o clock, you are 6 o'clock. By the time you reach 12 o clock they will have reached 4 or 5 o'clock (wherever their straight is).
You set off first. They'd have to wait. Still no crash.
They set off first, AFTER which you set off. STILL no crash as you will be behind them If you wouldn't crash in situation 1 you certainly wouldn't crash here!

So, right/left/whatever priority here is irrelevant here because the other car never crosses your path. The only situation is if they set off at the EXACT time you appear in front of them but because you're starting from opposite ends this should never happen. You are always behind them if they go counter clockwise.

Why exactly did you think you'd crash and he'd cross your path?

If he was on your right he would cut across your path, but in this case he would not. You could even be taking the same exit if it's a normal 4 exit mini roundabout in which case they would always get there first.

Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong... might draw a diagram if I can get draw.io to work. and upload. We have no pens anywhere in the house...

A mini roundabout driving question ...

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