This government cares about the safety of schools, hence the action taken

[noblegiraffe]

Says the government as they close 100 schools just before term starts (or after in some cases).

If this is your first rodeo with the DfE you might be surprised to hear that they've known about the issue for years. That a school ceiling collapsed in 2018 and it was only because it happened at the weekend, kids weren't killed or injured. That reports put the risk of school collapse as 'critical', but the govt did nothing for 5 years. The risk of school collapse was raised to 'highly likely' in Dec 2022 and it took till March 2023 for the government to take the action of.... sending headteachers a questionnaire asking if they reckoned their school had RAAC. They then set up a call centre in June 2023 to phone schools asking why they hadn't completed the survey.
Fastforward to August and schools are being closed.

You might consider this an aberration. Schools are now safe. But.

Schools are still being built with Grenfell-style cladding. It's ok for schools. https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/30/dozens-of-new-school-buildings-in-england-have-combustible-insulation

Schools aren't being fitted with sprinklers, going against fire safety advice https://www.nationalfirechiefs.org.uk/write/MediaUploads/Position%20statements/Protection/NFCC_Sprinklers_schools_position_statement_march_2018.pdf

The issue of asbestos which is present in over 80% of schools is becoming increasingly pressing. It's ok if asbestos is managed correctly, right? https://schoolsweek.co.uk/nearly-1-in-5-schools-not-in-line-with-guidance-on-managing-asbestos/ Asbestos is ok if left undisturbed, but with school buildings crumbling and falling apart, this means that previously 'safe' asbestos now poses a risk.
The HSE has become so concerned that in Sept 2022 it decided to start inspections of schools for asbestos management. https://content.govdelivery.com/accounts/UKHSE/bulletins/3204596 you might have thought that they did this already?

The government recently hired a contractor to build several new schools which have been unable to open due to safety concerns and some have now been demolished. There was a risk of them blowing away in high winds....but they were cheap. https://www.constructionenquirer.com/2023/08/24/caledonian-modular-built-schools-at-risk-of-collapse-in-high-winds/

The cost of repairing the school estate to a merely satisfactory standard has been estimated by the DfE itself as £11.4bn. Nowhere near this has been allocated, meaning schools are not at a satisfactory standard and are not planned to be. https://schoolsweek.co.uk/repairing-englands-schools-will-cost-11-4-billion-dfe-admits/

It only matters if it closes schools though, right?

I think it is important not to panic though and throw huge amounts of money without expert assessment. At the moment, the papers are kicking up such a frenzy again inevitably huge amounts of money will end up being allocated and spent when it may have been better spending it on other stuff in education.
Thousands of children live in unsanitary rented mouldy accommodation too. Health and safety is important, of course, but once people make a huge song and dance about stuff then any government has no choice but to throw money at it and often in a wasteful way. Structural engineers of repute need to investigate and advise in a sensible manner.

Schools or LEAs / academy chain managers have to bring in specialist surveyors to examine the buildings, I gather from media reports and posts on this forum.

Lathe and plaster ceilings in Victorian buildings are actually also really dangerous and can give way with little notice. The plaster is really heavy and was not meant to last hundreds of years either.
It has happened in the middle of the night to several of my friends - one in a child’s bedroom inches from her head. We have a lot of depleted housing stock issues in this country not just in schools. The London tube, for example, has huge amounts of pollution in it. Just breathing that air on certain lines daily is actually a hazard.

@noblegiraffe you are 100% correct in everything you say. I know a little about this professionally.

only 104 schools have been closed because they are the only ones to have definitely confirmed they have raac in that ill conceived survey you mention in your op.

no school can definitively say they don’t have it until a full survey had been carried out by a qualified competent person. Anything else is a best guess. Asking the caretaker to have a scout round does not qualify as a survey.

The DoE is now scrambling to do what it should’ve done years ago as we all reap the rewards of the cancellation of Labour’s school improvement programme by Cameron in 2010. This has got Tory shit show written all over it.

Just looking at BBC news website the Loughborough University expert said one factor that can cause a problem is whether the concrete/building has been properly maintained. Since when were school buildings properly maintained!

No one single party is to blame, they are all to blame and this is our problem, it doesn't matter who got in none of them have fixed the problem they knew about. Whats labours excuse in Wales and Scotland? Exactly.

Feel like we need a brand new party really, a break away from labour and conservatives.

I know, my post was tongue in cheek!

Its important to note that whilst that decision directly only impacted England, funding for Scotland and Wales is decided through the Barnet formula and therefore less funding in England means less money also for the Scottish and Welsh governments to spend.

And the nature of the Barnet formula means that per head Scotland and Wales recieve less funding than England.

Just imagine being one of the headteachers contacted yesterday - the first INSET day of the term round here, and I imagine for much of England - to be told that your school wasn’t safe to open to pupils on Monday/Tuesday next week. This is exactly what happened during the pandemic - the stupid DfE would release the latest schools’ guidance on a Friday evening and expect the poor Heads and SLT to organise everything in time for Monday morning. Incompetent uncaring wankers.

According to the Institute for Fiscal Studies, spending per head on education is currently roughly the same in England, Wales and Northern Ireland, but higher in Scotland. Spending per pupil has gone back up to 2010 levels in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and is now higher in Scotland.

https://ifs.org.uk/publications/how-does-school-spending-pupil-differ-across-uk#:~:text=4.-,Conclusions,and%20any%20consequent%20extra%20funding.

Saying that spending is at 2010 levels, rather ignores some dramatic increases in costs to schools for example the 43% increase in pension contributions schools had to pay back to the government - to all intents and purposes a cut in school funding.

I should have been clearer, funding for schools may be roughly the same in each nation, but for overall funding the Barnett formula allocates less funding per head to Wales and Scotland than it does to England.

From a parents’ perspective though, Covid set a precedent that school closures are somehow acceptance for health and safety reasons. And that the DFE has some sort of super power to issue the guidance last minute. Sure for schools that have been condemned by a surveyor, absolutely. But somehow this reeks of shit stirring political panic point scoring all over again. I really hope someone is taking charge of getting surveyors and expert builders through the door asap rather than paper pushers on a power trip at the DFE all over again.

@jgw1 I don't think that's correct. Scotland receives more than the other nations under the Barnett formula not less.

Eh? The schools that have been closed/temporary classrooms/relocated have all been surveyed by experts and actively present a danger to life and limb.

I don't think it's covid that set a precedent that closing dangerous buildings is acceptable, merely common sense.

@noblegiraffe - it is in the detail. Nothing against closing actively condemned dangerous buildings, but only those buildings, not whole schools. Like I said, many heads seem to think this is yet another massive storm in a tea cup. It comes across in how they write to parents about the issue!

They’re only closing the affected buildings. What do you think they are doing?

In 2021, according to Gov.uk, Wales received £120 per capita for every £100 of public expenditure spent in England. IIRC, Scotland gets a little more than that. It was designed to compensate for the lesser population density and the cost of providing public services in more remote areas.

My DD’s school was one of the 52 identified earlier this year as needing immediate remedial works. From what I understand (and the DFE has not exactly been transparent and forthcoming about this) they were monitoring the RAAC situation but things were generally thought to be OK then overnight the school was told it had to close the affected spaces/buildings. That led to several days where the school was shut whilst they put in props and other safety measures and then several months of remedial building work to replace/repair the affected areas. This work finished in July/August.

You can therefore imagine my surprise when we got an email from the school yesterday saying that the school will be closed at the beginning of next week and with limited students in for the rest of the week. Other students (including my DD) will be doing remote learning for the rest of the week whilst they assess the longer term impact and make plans. All I can think is that the school had been told to deal with those areas deemed ‘critical’ earlier this year and other areas were either deemed low risk or were to be monitored. Then the assessment of what was critical changed and so the school has a lot more RAAC that they have to deal with.

I feel so sorry for the head and other staff, it must be an absolute nightmare.

"Saying that spending is at 2010 levels, rather ignores some dramatic increases in costs to schools for example the 43% increase in pension contributions schools had to pay back to the government - to all intents and purposes a cut in school funding."

Yes and there is also 14 years of no net growth in spending to contend with.

I'm a bit fed up of this line here and I'm a raging socialist. It just doesn't make the news but there are independent schools with RAAC, too.

Wat will happen is that they will be sorted in a more timely fashion, probably, and with more help from 'charitable' trusts.

But, jus in case - private school parents, if you are sitting smug and comfy : your DCs may also be in unsafe buildings.

For those talking about Wales, I can’t speak for other LAs but ours (Labour run) released a statement saying no schools in the area have the affected materials, and they are aware of this because they have all been surveyed so their are obviously fully aware of the issue and have been for a while, they haven’t just sat up and said ‘look what’s happening over the border, we should be aware of that too’

I think there is a bit of an assumption that any school built in the time frame has RAAC. This isn't the case. Most are built with other building materials.

Just the asbestos, lack of sprinklers, hazardous cladding, leaking flat roofs, poor ventilation , rodent infestations and legionella to worry about in those buildings then.

So Sunak refused to rebuild the schools when chancellor, even when there was a critical risk to life. Fuck this government honestly. It could have been any kid killed - mine or yours. And what would have happened then? Oh sorry we gave all the money on wasted PPE, unfit track and trace, dug huge holes for HS2 and then cancelled it... I'm actually in despair.

There are 15,000 schools in England. The Minister this morning was trying to convince us that rebuilding 239 of them in some undefined timescale is a triumph.

If a school builing has a lifespan of 50 years, then they need to be rebuilding 300 a year...

JFC just seen the Gillian Keegan hot mic interview. How can she possibly think she's doing a "fucking good job"?!!!!!