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Original poster

Care home fees - really struggling to understand but want to support

79 replies

PurpleSteak · 12/08/2023 08:15

My friend is an only child of parents who were absolutely complete wrapped up in each other. Her mum who died after a horrible period with dementia a few years ago was kind, but her father has always been nasty, manipulative, controlling (with a diagnosed personality disorder) , both to mum and friend.

Since mum died he's got worse and now appears to be starting with some dementia. He's had a period in hospital after being sectioned.

Friend loves her Dad and believes it's her duty to make sure he gets what he wants, which is to return home, altbough she knows this will be hard on her - neighbours were regularly calling the police for his threatening behaviour before he went into hospital and she would visit to find urine soaked furniture and no food in the house.

Hospital are looking at discharge and care packages. He has money he'll be expected to cover the costs.

She knows she can't care for him, she doesn't want to and he can be violent. However, she is fuming that he'll have to pay for the care. Currently looking at ways to get him home without paying for care.

She will inherit anything left and as an only child this could be substantial, but she and her DH have a good lifestyle and financial security. Obviously a bit more is always good, but it's unlikely everything will be spent and she doesn't "need" the money.

My view is that they should throw money at it to get him the support they need and take some pressure off her, but she will do everything to protect "his" money. She seems to think she's doing it for him, he's worked all his life etc, but he's never going to have any need of the money.

I realise her sense of duty etc is affected by the difficult personality/relationship, but I'm struggling to understand this and really only want to help.

OP posts:
GCAcademic · 12/08/2023 08:19

If he's been sectioned, is he able to live at home? That suggests he's a danger to himself or others. If someone who has been sectioned goes into a care home, the local authority used to have to cover the costs (that was the case for a relative of mine around ten years ago, anyway, and they had plenty of money that might have been used to pay for care(.

Original poster
PurpleSteak · 12/08/2023 08:24

GCAcademic · 12/08/2023 08:19

If he's been sectioned, is he able to live at home? That suggests he's a danger to himself or others. If someone who has been sectioned goes into a care home, the local authority used to have to cover the costs (that was the case for a relative of mine around ten years ago, anyway, and they had plenty of money that might have been used to pay for care(.

They've decided his issues are now managed with medication and he's ready to be discharged home with a care package.

I don't know exactly how it all works but the "section" has expired and won't be renewed. It's not currently deemed necessary.

OP posts:
hashbrownsandwich · 12/08/2023 08:25

The previous poster mentions sectioning but this is not a straight forward process. There would need to be a DOLS in place potentially or he would need to be sectioned under section 3 if the mental health act. Again, this is not a simple overnight process.
Is your friend in possession of LPA?
Realistically she needs to be firm with the hospital discharge team and tell them he is not able to be supported by her at home.
The team will be used to this and while your friend may feel guilty, it May not be her best interests or her fathers for him to return home.
Of course, care at home packages can be an option but I would hesitate to do that. It sounds like a care home with dementia capabilities is the most appropriate option.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

Care homes Dementia & alzheimer's
Maaate · 12/08/2023 08:25

For me, the whole point of "working all my life, etc." is to make sure you are covered financially in retirement and old age, including any care you might need.

Sure, local authorities will cover some of the costs, but it will be absolute bare bones basic stuff.

hashbrownsandwich · 12/08/2023 08:26

Section 2 of the mental health act is a short term option to detain people in hospitals or care facilities. Section 3 is a longer term option. This is obvs my very simplified explanation.

Original poster
PurpleSteak · 12/08/2023 08:27

hashbrownsandwich · 12/08/2023 08:25

The previous poster mentions sectioning but this is not a straight forward process. There would need to be a DOLS in place potentially or he would need to be sectioned under section 3 if the mental health act. Again, this is not a simple overnight process.
Is your friend in possession of LPA?
Realistically she needs to be firm with the hospital discharge team and tell them he is not able to be supported by her at home.
The team will be used to this and while your friend may feel guilty, it May not be her best interests or her fathers for him to return home.
Of course, care at home packages can be an option but I would hesitate to do that. It sounds like a care home with dementia capabilities is the most appropriate option.

He want to return to his home (not hers) and as that's what he wants, it's what she's decided is her duty to achieve.

That's what I struggle to understand - I'd think she should be pushing for residential care but she "knows" he'd hate that so is determined to avoid it.

OP posts:
ssd · 12/08/2023 08:28

I think your friend has got some of her dads personality. Care isn't free if you have the means to pay for it. Every adult knows that.

Endofroadinhs · 12/08/2023 08:29

If he’s violent or has really difficult behaviour it will be virtually impossible to find people to staff that, I have worked in this field for many years and have seen both private individuals and council commissioning teams look for up to a year for these types of packages and have failed. She won’t be able to do it herself and it may become safeguarding issue if she insists he goes home.

Dacadactyl · 12/08/2023 08:31

Sounds to me like your friend doesn't like her dad and wants to protect her inheritance.

hashbrownsandwich · 12/08/2023 08:31

Completely agree with @Endofroadinhs

TakenRoot · 12/08/2023 08:31

The ‘Care package’ will presumably be the so called ‘re-enablement’ 6 weeks of home visit support, OT assessment etc.

They will then assess what further support he needs. If he has less than £23k in savings the LA will pay. If more, he will have to pay until his savings reduce to &23k.

He would probably be eligible for Attendance Allowance which is not means tested and can be spent on any form of support he likes.

Has your friend got POA?

concernedmumhelp · 12/08/2023 08:32

PurpleSteak · 12/08/2023 08:24

They've decided his issues are now managed with medication and he's ready to be discharged home with a care package.

I don't know exactly how it all works but the "section" has expired and won't be renewed. It's not currently deemed necessary.

Show quote history

If he has been on a section 3 (the 6 month one) then there is Section 117 responsibility to address need.

https://www.mind.org.uk/information-support/legal-rights/leaving-hospital/section-117-aftercare/

It is worth your friend getting some advice about this.

LadyGardenersQuestionTime · 12/08/2023 08:33

From what I can see she is trying to protect her inheritance. Whether he comes home or goes into residential care he will have to pay if he can afford it.

If he has capacity to understand the risks he has the right to refuse care if he wants to. Finding a residential place for him will be difficult anyway. Eventually there will be another crisis whatever happens.

To be honest I can’t see how you can help here other than be a non judgemental listening ear (if you can).

cuckyplunt · 12/08/2023 08:35

Why should my hard earned tax money go to pay for her father, so she can have her inheritance. If he can support himself, he bloody needs to.

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 12/08/2023 08:35

A care home is most likely to be suited to his needs, but attempts will be made to discharge home unless your friend makes it clear she cannot and will not be his carer. Either way, he will have to pay.

Your friend needs to let go the inheritance, however unfair that feels. It’s not her money, it’s her dad’s. Regardless of how unpleasant he is, the money - including his house if necessary - should be spent on his own care.

When my DM sold up and moved to live in a care home we waved goodbye to our inheritance knowing mum would be safe and happy for at least 8 years before the council needed to step in, and most of the time we spent with her was on fun family times instead of dealing with incidents. Unfortunately she only spent half of what she had before she died, so we did get some inheritance in the end.

Hoppinggreen · 12/08/2023 08:44

If she wants to protect any future (non guaranteed) inheritance then she will have to support the nasty man.
Her choice

Toddler101 · 12/08/2023 08:45

Maaate · 12/08/2023 08:25

For me, the whole point of "working all my life, etc." is to make sure you are covered financially in retirement and old age, including any care you might need.

Sure, local authorities will cover some of the costs, but it will be absolute bare bones basic stuff.

Agree.

However, she is fuming that he'll have to pay for the care. Currently looking at ways to get him home without paying for care. Surely getting home with care would be in his best interests and that should be priority, over and above her potential inheritance. She sounds like she cares more for her dad's money than her dad.

OP I'd steer clear and let your friend get on with it whatever they do or you may risk souring your friendship.

Original poster
PurpleSteak · 12/08/2023 08:45

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 12/08/2023 08:35

A care home is most likely to be suited to his needs, but attempts will be made to discharge home unless your friend makes it clear she cannot and will not be his carer. Either way, he will have to pay.

Your friend needs to let go the inheritance, however unfair that feels. It’s not her money, it’s her dad’s. Regardless of how unpleasant he is, the money - including his house if necessary - should be spent on his own care.

When my DM sold up and moved to live in a care home we waved goodbye to our inheritance knowing mum would be safe and happy for at least 8 years before the council needed to step in, and most of the time we spent with her was on fun family times instead of dealing with incidents. Unfortunately she only spent half of what she had before she died, so we did get some inheritance in the end.

He doesn't want the money spent on his care either, so she feels she has to do what she can to prevent that happening.

OP posts:
Original poster
PurpleSteak · 12/08/2023 08:47

WiseUpJanetWeiss · 12/08/2023 08:35

A care home is most likely to be suited to his needs, but attempts will be made to discharge home unless your friend makes it clear she cannot and will not be his carer. Either way, he will have to pay.

Your friend needs to let go the inheritance, however unfair that feels. It’s not her money, it’s her dad’s. Regardless of how unpleasant he is, the money - including his house if necessary - should be spent on his own care.

When my DM sold up and moved to live in a care home we waved goodbye to our inheritance knowing mum would be safe and happy for at least 8 years before the council needed to step in, and most of the time we spent with her was on fun family times instead of dealing with incidents. Unfortunately she only spent half of what she had before she died, so we did get some inheritance in the end.

That's exactly how I feel about my own parents. The fact that I know there is some money there to pay for care if needed takes a huge worry away from me. They don't like it though.

OP posts:
Justgonefishing · 12/08/2023 08:48

as she is a child who grew up with apparently narcissistic parents,its understandable that she has a distorted picture of her duty in caring for her father and still meeting his needs..at the end of the day she may have to go through the process of getting him home and attempting to support him . What you as a friend see is not going to be what she sees so all you can do is be a listening ear until she decides to prioritise her own needs.

Dacadactyl · 12/08/2023 08:50

PurpleSteak · 12/08/2023 08:45

He doesn't want the money spent on his care either, so she feels she has to do what she can to prevent that happening.

Show quote history

She will have to be round his house daily (perhaps 4 times a day) providing his care then!

Endofroadinhs · 12/08/2023 08:52

Well if he has the mental capacity to make those decisions then of course he has refuse and potentially suffer the consequences of a potentially bad decision in trying to manage without care.
But if he is deemed to lack capacity in that area then decisions need to be made in his best interests- and him wanting to hang onto finances won’t come into that.
A word of warning for your friend- health and social care professionals can and will make safeguarding referrals in these types of circumstances, the police will be a part of these processes and if something ‘bad’ ends up happening to the friends Dad Due to lack of care things can get pretty unpleasant.

MoserRothOrangeandAlmond · 12/08/2023 08:55

If she feels he's not safe to be at home and cannot look after him with a care package in place then he will have to go into 24 hour care.
If he goes home and then it doesn't work and social services deem him not safe and that he doesn't have full capacity to make these decisions. The decision would be taken out of your friends hands.

Who does she expect to pay for the care? When he has the means to do so?
My grandad has had dementia for 15 years and for 10years of that required 24 hour care in an EMI dementia unit. Funded by himself

User63847484848 · 12/08/2023 08:58

She needs to be very careful if she has legal decision making over his money and care (LPA and he has lost capacity). She must act in his best interests and although what he says he wants is part of this, she has to take lots of things into account like the risk of harm.
she absolutely must not scrimp on the care he needs to be safe at home for her own financial reasons although sadly I have seen this many times.

I know the costs of homecare can be surprising but she needs to come to terms now with the fact she’s not going to get the inheritance she thought she might get, because her dad has care needs and could live for many years, and the way our system is set up he will have to pay for that if he had the funds.

Strawberryfieldsforeverrr · 12/08/2023 08:59

There's lots of questions really:
Which section of three Mental Health Act was he detained under?
Does he have capacity to decide where to live? If not did a Best Interest meeting take place?
Does your friend have LPoA?
Has the Dad written any advance directive or such about how he wants to live / die?