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ExH driving dd8 (124cm) with no car seat

46 replies

PotaytoesPotahtoes · 31/07/2023 21:03

ExH is spending a few days with his parents a couple of hundred miles from where we live. I drove my kids up to near there to catch up with some friends, he took the train and the plan was the kids would go to him for time with his family , and now has them at his parents. When we met to hand over dd8 and ds13, he arrived in his parents' car with no car seat for DD. She is 8, and 124cm. My understanding is the legal requirement for no car seat except in an emergency, or where one can't fit, is 135cm.
His mother has tried before to drive my kids without car seats, I had to stand firm obviously and they found a car seat from a relative eventually.

He told me he'd get one sorted, but it's day 3 and my son has just texted me saying his little sister is still without a car seat.

Now exH has them, he's insisting it's legal and that I'm wrong. He got really angry with me when I said it was illegal.
Am I?! I'm sure I'm not.

What would you do?

They are coming back to me on Friday, so that's four more days of driving with no car seat.

OP posts:
Ponderingwindow · 01/08/2023 02:24

I think you made a mistake transferring the kids over without a car seat already in his car/possession He could have run to the shop and gotten one.

how laborious would it be to go retrieve the kids right now? How upset would they be about the change in plans? Actually, strike that, it would probably be cheaper for you to pay to have one delivered to him than it would be to go pick up the children. You shouldn’t have to do that, but if Amazon just dropped one at his door he wouldn’t have any excuse.

autienotnaughti · 01/08/2023 02:37

Thatboymum · 01/08/2023 01:42

I think you’re being very melodramatic now op. It’s almost like you were just looking for something to pick at him about

Wrong . If they are unfortunate enough to have a car accident a car seat could save their children's lives. We are extremely slack about car safety in the uk. In a number of countries children stay rear faced up to the age of 7. The chance of a child dying in an accident when rear faced is almost 0.

PotaytoesPotahtoes · 01/08/2023 16:11

Morewineplease10 · 01/08/2023 01:00

You could ring 911 and ask?
I doubt they'd do anything but they might.
My ex does stuff like this all the time.
Arseholes.

He indeed an arse. I don't understand him risking his own child's safety.

OP posts:

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

PotaytoesPotahtoes · 01/08/2023 16:11

Thatboymum · 01/08/2023 01:42

I think you’re being very melodramatic now op. It’s almost like you were just looking for something to pick at him about

Hardly. I just care about my kids.

OP posts:
PotaytoesPotahtoes · 01/08/2023 16:13

autienotnaughti · 01/08/2023 02:37

Wrong . If they are unfortunate enough to have a car accident a car seat could save their children's lives. We are extremely slack about car safety in the uk. In a number of countries children stay rear faced up to the age of 7. The chance of a child dying in an accident when rear faced is almost 0.

Thank you. Mine were both RF til about five, way longer than the UK average. I've always been hot on car safety. Him, not at all. I just can't comprehend being so reckless with kids' lives.

OP posts:
PotaytoesPotahtoes · 01/08/2023 16:20

Ponderingwindow · 01/08/2023 02:24

I think you made a mistake transferring the kids over without a car seat already in his car/possession He could have run to the shop and gotten one.

how laborious would it be to go retrieve the kids right now? How upset would they be about the change in plans? Actually, strike that, it would probably be cheaper for you to pay to have one delivered to him than it would be to go pick up the children. You shouldn’t have to do that, but if Amazon just dropped one at his door he wouldn’t have any excuse.

I argued with him there and then, insisted he was wrong about the law, and said that even if it's legal, it's not safe. He got really angry, insisted his parents big Audi was safer without a carseat than my average car model, that I was wrong and kids her age/size don't need a carseat, and that it was only a short distance to get a car seat from his brother (why was he collecting one from his brother when he believes she doesn't even need one?!). Turns out he hasn't bothered getting the car seat. I felt I couldn't stay arguing with him, my daughter especially hated the confrontation. Bottom line, my kids know their own father doesn't take their safety seriously.

I didn't want to be too outing with my details of the distance, but sod it. It's 455 miles there, 455 back. Will take me seven and a half hours to drive that, without stopping. Definitely cheaper to ship a carseat to his parents' house.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 03/08/2023 17:15

It is illegal, it is less than ideal safety wise, he absolutely SHOULD be using a car seat, even just a booster seat would be fine. He's definitely wrong and you're right.

BUT, in many countries (including countries with proper car seat laws, like Australia and I think every US state, including the stricter ones) she would be perfectly legal to travel without a car seat. Which means that the actual, real life implications of this are pretty small and borderline. It's unlikely to be the difference between life or death. If she was 3, then it would be worth throwing everything you could at this. At 8, I would leave it up to him - at least she is wearing a seatbelt, and it's up to him if he gets fined for not using a booster seat.

If you can get one to him, if he will actually use it, if you can do something easily enough that makes a reasonable difference then fine, but TBH, my main advice would be to stop thinking about it/stressing about it. Ensure that you always use the correct booster seat in your car, and don't expend a load of energy on things that you can't control. The chances they will be in a crash are pretty low. And even if they are in a crash, she will get some protection from the seatbelt.

If he's with his parents/his brother, and you're on friendly (ish) terms with them, could you have a word with them and hope that they bend his ear about it? Emphasise the law, the fact he could get a fine rather than it being about your differing safety standards, which people take as a difference in opinion.

We are extremely slack about car safety in the uk. In a number of countries children stay rear faced up to the age of 7.

This is just hyperbole. There are about 2 countries with a culture of ERF, and even Sweden which is the main one turn kids around on average about 3.5 years old. The UK has excellent car safety in comparison to places like Romania, Greece, Guatemala etc. We are not quite at Swedish standards, but it's not bad.

PotaytoesPotahtoes · 03/08/2023 22:06

BertieBotts · 03/08/2023 17:15

It is illegal, it is less than ideal safety wise, he absolutely SHOULD be using a car seat, even just a booster seat would be fine. He's definitely wrong and you're right.

BUT, in many countries (including countries with proper car seat laws, like Australia and I think every US state, including the stricter ones) she would be perfectly legal to travel without a car seat. Which means that the actual, real life implications of this are pretty small and borderline. It's unlikely to be the difference between life or death. If she was 3, then it would be worth throwing everything you could at this. At 8, I would leave it up to him - at least she is wearing a seatbelt, and it's up to him if he gets fined for not using a booster seat.

If you can get one to him, if he will actually use it, if you can do something easily enough that makes a reasonable difference then fine, but TBH, my main advice would be to stop thinking about it/stressing about it. Ensure that you always use the correct booster seat in your car, and don't expend a load of energy on things that you can't control. The chances they will be in a crash are pretty low. And even if they are in a crash, she will get some protection from the seatbelt.

If he's with his parents/his brother, and you're on friendly (ish) terms with them, could you have a word with them and hope that they bend his ear about it? Emphasise the law, the fact he could get a fine rather than it being about your differing safety standards, which people take as a difference in opinion.

We are extremely slack about car safety in the uk. In a number of countries children stay rear faced up to the age of 7.

This is just hyperbole. There are about 2 countries with a culture of ERF, and even Sweden which is the main one turn kids around on average about 3.5 years old. The UK has excellent car safety in comparison to places like Romania, Greece, Guatemala etc. We are not quite at Swedish standards, but it's not bad.

Thank you for replying.
They are coming home to me tomorrow.

I did call 101 yesterday, they sounded like they were very interested and took lots of details from me. Civilian on call though, he said he didn’t know what the police could do if they don’t see him actively driving with her.

I know the chances of crashing are low. But they do happen. I don’t understand parents taking the risk. I’m sorry my children know how little he cares about them.

I got the best seats possible for them (scandi ones, extended rf). Now he’s got them on his own, it’s like he’s deliberately being a dick about it as he knows how I feel about car safety.

OP posts:
eatsleepfarmrepeat · 03/08/2023 22:12

I agree with you OP, I’m neurotic about car seats, but I cannot work out why you didn’t give him your car seat?! His issue to lug up and down on the train, you handed your child over KNOWING they were getting straight into a car illegally and in danger. Come on?

BertieBotts · 03/08/2023 22:50

It probably is done to wind you up in all honesty - whether it's "I know, this will really bother Potaytoes" or whether it's just "God, Potaytoes is so overprotective, well ner, I can do what I want now" it's tiring. My ex used to do the same thing. Put him FF at 13 months (this was in 2009, so everyone did, but still!) even though I gave him the ERF(ish) seat that I'd researched and bought specifically and therefore couldn't then use myself. Used to feed him all sorts of rubbish and send the leftovers back with him so I would see them. Probably would still do the winding up thing only he hasn't bothered to see DS for years now.

But defo also why it's best sometimes to close eyes, stick fingers in ears and let them get on with it. If you can't control it, then it doesn't make sense to expend loads of energy/money/time on trying to. At least they are with you, in your car with your car seats most of the time. If you were still together then he'd probably be driving them around a lot more.

And honestly, the DC probably won't see it as Daddy doesn't care about us. They just trust adults to know best and do the right thing. Whether they are wrong or not will occur to them later.

PotaytoesPotahtoes · 03/08/2023 23:19

eatsleepfarmrepeat · 03/08/2023 22:12

I agree with you OP, I’m neurotic about car seats, but I cannot work out why you didn’t give him your car seat?! His issue to lug up and down on the train, you handed your child over KNOWING they were getting straight into a car illegally and in danger. Come on?

He wouldn't have brought the car seat back, then I'd be without it.
He also said he was going to get one from his brother that day, and it was only a short ride there.
He had shut his car doors, we were in a public car park, and were arguing on front of the kids and my DD was getting upset.
There is no reasoning with him.

OP posts:
PotaytoesPotahtoes · 03/08/2023 23:22

BertieBotts · 03/08/2023 22:50

It probably is done to wind you up in all honesty - whether it's "I know, this will really bother Potaytoes" or whether it's just "God, Potaytoes is so overprotective, well ner, I can do what I want now" it's tiring. My ex used to do the same thing. Put him FF at 13 months (this was in 2009, so everyone did, but still!) even though I gave him the ERF(ish) seat that I'd researched and bought specifically and therefore couldn't then use myself. Used to feed him all sorts of rubbish and send the leftovers back with him so I would see them. Probably would still do the winding up thing only he hasn't bothered to see DS for years now.

But defo also why it's best sometimes to close eyes, stick fingers in ears and let them get on with it. If you can't control it, then it doesn't make sense to expend loads of energy/money/time on trying to. At least they are with you, in your car with your car seats most of the time. If you were still together then he'd probably be driving them around a lot more.

And honestly, the DC probably won't see it as Daddy doesn't care about us. They just trust adults to know best and do the right thing. Whether they are wrong or not will occur to them later.

Thank you for your wise words.

I do think he's being antagonistic but why take it out on our kids, and risk them? What kind of act of spite is that?
I think my kids do see it as it is. My son has messaged me a few times saying they are driving and still no car seat. My youngest kept asking me at handover what she should do.
I am grateful they are with me most of the time. I wish he'd just leave me to it.

Yes, if we were together he'd be driving them a bit more, but he did at least go along with my decisions on car seats when we were together, and we only had the one car.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 03/08/2023 23:36

cheeseandketchupsandwich · 31/07/2023 21:07

When a child can travel without a car seat
A child aged 3 or older can travel in a back seat without a child car seat and without a seat belt if the vehicle doesn’t have one.
In most cases, children under 3 must always be in a child car seat.

I get really cross with this page, because it's the official government page and it's supposed to have a reading age of 9 to be easy to understand, but this is worded so rubbishly and sounds like you don't need to use a car seat for children over 3 AT ALL!! It's so stupidly, dangerously ambiguous. I think it's because in their site, it comes directly after a page called "When children need to use a car seat" but it's the first result that comes up (without the when they DO) when you google "when can children stop using a car seat?"

I've written to them about it but they just ignore me.

Many people will automatically insert a comma in between the two clauses, and understand as such:

*A child aged 3 or older can travel in a back seat without a child car seat, and without a seat belt if the vehicle doesn’t have one."

When what it actually means is:

If a vehicle has no seatbelts, a child aged 3 and older can travel in the rear without a child car seat or seatbelt.

What they really need is a massive great header saying "Exceptions to the car seat rule" and a bit of text first saying:

Normally, children must use a car seat up until age 12 or 135cm, whichever comes first. (Link to car seat rules page) Exceptions are made in the following situations:

  • When the vehicle has no seatbelts, a child over 3 can travel in the rear, with no seatbelt or car seat.
  • Children under 3 may not travel in a vehicle without seatbelts
  • When it's a taxi, emergency, blah blah

This is a particular problem, because the booster/car seats from 3-12 rule came in in 2003, and previously it was only children up to age 3 needing car seats, with some people (not the majority) voluntarily using them to about 5-7 years, meaning that there is a bit of an awareness gap, mainly among adults born in the 80s.

If you were born before the 1980s, then you likely never used a booster seat, and possibly never used any car seat at all as a child, so you are highly likely to have looked up the rules independently when you had your own children to find out what was recommended these days.

But, if you were born before 1991, then you were already older than 12 at the time that the new rule came in and likely didn't pay attention to it. In fact, you can probably extend this to 1993 because of the height guideline meaning your parents might not have even mentioned it to you. You might have general awareness that younger children need car seats and probably remember other children using them, but may not be aware that children now need to use them up to age 12, or that the rule had even changed at all. If you ask your parents, they might remember age 3 or they might just say they stopped using it when you were nursery or school age. This is the current awareness gap because these adults are currently in their 40s and have children at the top end of the booster age range. They know that booster seats are required/the norm, but they assume that children age out of them at about 6/7 years old unless they specifically have reason to look up the law. (Which is why the poorly written gov page is a problem!)

If you were born between 1993-2002, then your parents were likely well aware of this change, you probably used a booster seat yourself right up to the age/height limit and might even remember being made to go back into a booster seat after you had stopped using one.

But if you were born a tiny bit later, say after 2002, then despite it being big news in 2003, if your parents were not paying attention to this news because they did not yet have children or they only had a newborn or a 1 year old for example, they might be vaguely aware of the fact that more people are using booster seats, but not be aware that the law has now changed. So there's another awareness gap here, and I think we'll see a dip in booster use for children aged 6-12 again in about 10-20 years' time, unless it's been so successfully established that it's culturally frowned upon to go without.

I doubt that's what your ex is doing, but I meant to comment on this earlier and now I'm hiding from a giant moth before going to sleep Grin so you got the ramble anyway.

Seddon · 03/08/2023 23:45

There's some truth to the claim that an Audi gives very good crash protection compared to a regular old car, but that's not going to help the fact that your DD is too short for her seatbelt to fit properly! It must be across her neck, quite uncomfortable, and likely to really injure her in an accident.

If you think he'll listen at all, you could google the manual of that particular car which will probably tell you somewhere that the seatbelt can only be safely used alone on people over a certain height.

BertieBotts · 03/08/2023 23:59

PotaytoesPotahtoes · 03/08/2023 23:22

Thank you for your wise words.

I do think he's being antagonistic but why take it out on our kids, and risk them? What kind of act of spite is that?
I think my kids do see it as it is. My son has messaged me a few times saying they are driving and still no car seat. My youngest kept asking me at handover what she should do.
I am grateful they are with me most of the time. I wish he'd just leave me to it.

Yes, if we were together he'd be driving them a bit more, but he did at least go along with my decisions on car seats when we were together, and we only had the one car.

IME, when people are lax on car safety it is not because they do not care about the child's safety, although they might be less risk averse personality types in general.

They generally do not see it as a risk, or they see it as a very tiny/small risk. Sometimes they are overconfident in their own driving skills, and think that they would be able to avoid all crashes or any crash would be a "minor" rear end shunt, or they misunderstand crash forces and think that most crashes are minor and you would be able to hold on, (I attended a baby show once where Britax had a small crash test run set up, they crashed a seat at 5km/h with an unrestrained dummy in it, and more than half the people watching were audibly surprised that the baby flew out) or they simply have never thought about the physics of how a seatbelt/car seat/booster seat works, and seem to assume it is some kind of magic talisman that will work perfectly no matter how poorly you wear the seatbelt.

I think if you're really into car seat safety then you can get into that bubble where it just seems like obvious common sense and why wouldn't people care about it, but when I went to work with car seats, I realised that most people actually don't have this attitude at all, it's actually quite uncommon. There is a small percentage who are highly concerned with safety (and I didn't see most of them where I worked because of course, they tend to realise that specialists exist and avoid the chain stores.) Most people are somewhere in the middle, they want a decent seat with a good safety rating but they aren't bothered about optimising for every possible scenario, good enough is good enough. And then there's another, larger minority in the direction of your XH as I described above, they see car seats as a total nuisance and don't care about the safety rating at all, they just want the cheapest/easiest to use, only use them because the law says so, barely bother with the safety instructions, have a "that'll do" attitude to installing and will ditch them ASAP. (And then a very much smaller minority who really don't even try, but then I didn't see them in the shop either, because they actively didn't want advice and would rarely buy new unless it was the cheapest possible kind of seat).

It's only the last group in brackets that I would consider truly negligent - the ones that weren't bothered about safety rating did still have good intentions, they just had different priorities and they trusted that the law/safety regulations would cover all the worrying that they need to do so they didn't do any themselves.

PotaytoesPotahtoes · 04/08/2023 02:12

BertieBotts · 03/08/2023 23:36

I get really cross with this page, because it's the official government page and it's supposed to have a reading age of 9 to be easy to understand, but this is worded so rubbishly and sounds like you don't need to use a car seat for children over 3 AT ALL!! It's so stupidly, dangerously ambiguous. I think it's because in their site, it comes directly after a page called "When children need to use a car seat" but it's the first result that comes up (without the when they DO) when you google "when can children stop using a car seat?"

I've written to them about it but they just ignore me.

Many people will automatically insert a comma in between the two clauses, and understand as such:

*A child aged 3 or older can travel in a back seat without a child car seat, and without a seat belt if the vehicle doesn’t have one."

When what it actually means is:

If a vehicle has no seatbelts, a child aged 3 and older can travel in the rear without a child car seat or seatbelt.

What they really need is a massive great header saying "Exceptions to the car seat rule" and a bit of text first saying:

Normally, children must use a car seat up until age 12 or 135cm, whichever comes first. (Link to car seat rules page) Exceptions are made in the following situations:

  • When the vehicle has no seatbelts, a child over 3 can travel in the rear, with no seatbelt or car seat.
  • Children under 3 may not travel in a vehicle without seatbelts
  • When it's a taxi, emergency, blah blah

This is a particular problem, because the booster/car seats from 3-12 rule came in in 2003, and previously it was only children up to age 3 needing car seats, with some people (not the majority) voluntarily using them to about 5-7 years, meaning that there is a bit of an awareness gap, mainly among adults born in the 80s.

If you were born before the 1980s, then you likely never used a booster seat, and possibly never used any car seat at all as a child, so you are highly likely to have looked up the rules independently when you had your own children to find out what was recommended these days.

But, if you were born before 1991, then you were already older than 12 at the time that the new rule came in and likely didn't pay attention to it. In fact, you can probably extend this to 1993 because of the height guideline meaning your parents might not have even mentioned it to you. You might have general awareness that younger children need car seats and probably remember other children using them, but may not be aware that children now need to use them up to age 12, or that the rule had even changed at all. If you ask your parents, they might remember age 3 or they might just say they stopped using it when you were nursery or school age. This is the current awareness gap because these adults are currently in their 40s and have children at the top end of the booster age range. They know that booster seats are required/the norm, but they assume that children age out of them at about 6/7 years old unless they specifically have reason to look up the law. (Which is why the poorly written gov page is a problem!)

If you were born between 1993-2002, then your parents were likely well aware of this change, you probably used a booster seat yourself right up to the age/height limit and might even remember being made to go back into a booster seat after you had stopped using one.

But if you were born a tiny bit later, say after 2002, then despite it being big news in 2003, if your parents were not paying attention to this news because they did not yet have children or they only had a newborn or a 1 year old for example, they might be vaguely aware of the fact that more people are using booster seats, but not be aware that the law has now changed. So there's another awareness gap here, and I think we'll see a dip in booster use for children aged 6-12 again in about 10-20 years' time, unless it's been so successfully established that it's culturally frowned upon to go without.

I doubt that's what your ex is doing, but I meant to comment on this earlier and now I'm hiding from a giant moth before going to sleep Grin so you got the ramble anyway.

Ex is not stupid, I'm sure he knows it's illegal to drive without a car seat for our youngest child. But yes, the government page could be written much more clearly.

Good luck with the moth!

OP posts:
PotaytoesPotahtoes · 04/08/2023 02:15

Seddon · 03/08/2023 23:45

There's some truth to the claim that an Audi gives very good crash protection compared to a regular old car, but that's not going to help the fact that your DD is too short for her seatbelt to fit properly! It must be across her neck, quite uncomfortable, and likely to really injure her in an accident.

If you think he'll listen at all, you could google the manual of that particular car which will probably tell you somewhere that the seatbelt can only be safely used alone on people over a certain height.

I have a decent car (Hyundai Tucson) that I feel is as safe as his parents' Audi.
He knows DD is too short, he knows he's wrong, I've sent him links, and asked him to send me his proof of why he believes she doesn't need a seat, which has been ignored.

They are back tomorrow. I can't wait.

OP posts:
PotaytoesPotahtoes · 04/08/2023 02:21

BertieBotts · 03/08/2023 23:59

IME, when people are lax on car safety it is not because they do not care about the child's safety, although they might be less risk averse personality types in general.

They generally do not see it as a risk, or they see it as a very tiny/small risk. Sometimes they are overconfident in their own driving skills, and think that they would be able to avoid all crashes or any crash would be a "minor" rear end shunt, or they misunderstand crash forces and think that most crashes are minor and you would be able to hold on, (I attended a baby show once where Britax had a small crash test run set up, they crashed a seat at 5km/h with an unrestrained dummy in it, and more than half the people watching were audibly surprised that the baby flew out) or they simply have never thought about the physics of how a seatbelt/car seat/booster seat works, and seem to assume it is some kind of magic talisman that will work perfectly no matter how poorly you wear the seatbelt.

I think if you're really into car seat safety then you can get into that bubble where it just seems like obvious common sense and why wouldn't people care about it, but when I went to work with car seats, I realised that most people actually don't have this attitude at all, it's actually quite uncommon. There is a small percentage who are highly concerned with safety (and I didn't see most of them where I worked because of course, they tend to realise that specialists exist and avoid the chain stores.) Most people are somewhere in the middle, they want a decent seat with a good safety rating but they aren't bothered about optimising for every possible scenario, good enough is good enough. And then there's another, larger minority in the direction of your XH as I described above, they see car seats as a total nuisance and don't care about the safety rating at all, they just want the cheapest/easiest to use, only use them because the law says so, barely bother with the safety instructions, have a "that'll do" attitude to installing and will ditch them ASAP. (And then a very much smaller minority who really don't even try, but then I didn't see them in the shop either, because they actively didn't want advice and would rarely buy new unless it was the cheapest possible kind of seat).

It's only the last group in brackets that I would consider truly negligent - the ones that weren't bothered about safety rating did still have good intentions, they just had different priorities and they trusted that the law/safety regulations would cover all the worrying that they need to do so they didn't do any themselves.

Did you uses to post about car seat safety in here about 12 years ago? I seem to remember your writing style from when I was a new mum. I definitely have seen your name a lot.

I do think xh just doesn't care enough. He's proving himself to be hugely selfish towards the children since we split. Actually, I think he always was, but it wasn't as obvious with me around to mitigate his attitude.
It would have been so easy to get a car seat, or even just buy a new one for keeping at his parents' house.

I get what you are saying. I still don't understand people not wanting to maximise the safety of their children though, but obviously people do horrendous things to their own children, and perhaps this is a sliding scale.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 04/08/2023 22:13

I don't think so, not 12 years ago. I was only just starting to learn about it myself then. I was probably reading though so maybe I've absorbed the posting style of others!

PotaytoesPotahtoes · 04/08/2023 23:37

BertieBotts · 04/08/2023 22:13

I don't think so, not 12 years ago. I was only just starting to learn about it myself then. I was probably reading though so maybe I've absorbed the posting style of others!

Definitely know your name.

Kids are home with me now. Not heard from the police.

OP posts:
BertieBotts · 05/08/2023 16:25

Well, I just found myself on an old thread I was referring to and apparently I was giving car seat advice on here in 2011 which turns out to be 12 years ago!! Shock How did that happen? Hahaha

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