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Original poster

Exam data request from school

50 replies

Siciliansummer · 18/07/2023 15:11

I believe DS is being treated unfairly by school. He is not being allowed to change sets based on exam results, despite suggests being able to do so.

school policy doesn’t explain the process here other than is data based from year end exams. and they have just fobbed me off with others did better

i happen to know others did not do better (DS best friends) and were moved.

can I ask for evidence of this at all? Or any thoughts on how can have independently challenged?

Going into Year 10 so potentially hugely impactful

thanks

OP posts:
JanetandJohn500 · 18/07/2023 18:10

@TeenDivided oops! Yes, you're right - new guidance 🤦🏼‍♀️

itsmyp4rty · 18/07/2023 18:26

Seeing as the highest you can get on a foundation paper is a 5 - and once he starts the foundation curriculum (I'm assuming) it's going to be difficult to do the higher paper in the exam as he won't have covered everything - I wouldn't be happy.

In this situation I would be 'that mother' and say ds got this, his friends say they got this - can you just explain why they've been moved up and ds hasn't because I'm very concerned that he's not going to be able to do the higher paper and so can only get a 5 max.

What did he get in his exams?

Curioushorse · 18/07/2023 18:49

'Really interesting. Do you mind if I ask how you reflect such broad consideration in a policy? Thanks'

Of course. It can't be a policy that's phrased in any coherent way to parents- but there's just absolutely no motivation for putting a child in a class where they will get lower grades. That would harm both the child, and the department. I will caveat this by saying I teach English- which isn't tiered entry.

I've been teaching 20 years, and have worked in a number of schools. If any of us have ever felt a child was being held back because of their set in any of those schools, we would let the Head of Department know, and they would have been moved. It regularly happens.

At this stage of the year we have been considering sets for several weeks. Each year group has been rejigged according to the data for each term. We've then had a look manually and the whole department (18 teachers) have made suggestions for movements. These have been for a range of reasons: potential (this might be the effort a child makes, or enthusiasm, or perhaps EAL- which can mask potential); behaviour; social- anything really. These have now been reviewed for things like gender, and we've been sent them to check again.

Having said that, we usually won't let a child move just because a parent thinks they should. There are instances where they would fall into the category of harming the child. Sometimes having a child in a set which is too high for them can mean they can't access the work and might miss out on the scaffolding or support you'd get in a lower set. My top sets have 32 students, for example- while my set 7 has 10, and two TAs. It can also confer a status on the sets which is incorrect. I know parents want their children to be in a high set because they somehow feel aspirationally it's a sign their child is destined for greatness- but that really isn't always the best place for them.

I don't know how big your child's school is- but I haven't worked in many where this would be the Head of Year's concern. They may well have no idea. Contact the subject heads. They should be able to explain their choices. NEVER be afraid of being 'that parent'. I love 'that parent'!

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Nellle · 18/07/2023 18:57

A phone call with head of subject should explain the reason.

Also there is increasing evidence that setting has little to no positive impact on student attainment.

We're going mixed ability next year. Can't wait. The pros outweigh the cons.

noblegiraffe · 18/07/2023 18:57

Not in maths.

TeenDivided · 18/07/2023 19:01

noblegiraffe · 18/07/2023 18:57

Not in maths.

I'm not convinced it would help in English language either.
It seems to me those who are borderline to pass you need to throw out teaching the fancy stuff and stick to 'this is what you need for a 4/5'.

Nor Science where there is tiers.

AllTheThunderstorms · 18/07/2023 19:53

Loads of accurate info above. Our school does not have a written policy for set moves because it is decided as part of a much bigger picture (as so eloquently put by many posters above). Children are complex and their needs are varied. That is probably why you can't get a definite policy answer with exact rules the school follows.

It's also worth knowing that lots of secondary schools timetable using sides. Our school has two sides (left and right) so pupils are on one side or the other. It means that one side does maths while the other does science (for example) reducing the need for as many subject staff and specialist rooms. It also means that someone might go up on the right side because there's space but a pupil gets a better score on the left but can't go up as there's no room on their side.

Don't worry about tiers at the start of Year 10, they can be changed right up until close to them sitting their GCSEs. These next two years are about assessing which tier is the right one, it's definitely not set in stone at the start of Year 10 (my job would be much easier if it was though as I wouldn't stress myself out doing all the exam entry tier changes Grin).

Sideorderofchips · 18/07/2023 19:56

Curioushorse · 18/07/2023 18:49

'Really interesting. Do you mind if I ask how you reflect such broad consideration in a policy? Thanks'

Of course. It can't be a policy that's phrased in any coherent way to parents- but there's just absolutely no motivation for putting a child in a class where they will get lower grades. That would harm both the child, and the department. I will caveat this by saying I teach English- which isn't tiered entry.

I've been teaching 20 years, and have worked in a number of schools. If any of us have ever felt a child was being held back because of their set in any of those schools, we would let the Head of Department know, and they would have been moved. It regularly happens.

At this stage of the year we have been considering sets for several weeks. Each year group has been rejigged according to the data for each term. We've then had a look manually and the whole department (18 teachers) have made suggestions for movements. These have been for a range of reasons: potential (this might be the effort a child makes, or enthusiasm, or perhaps EAL- which can mask potential); behaviour; social- anything really. These have now been reviewed for things like gender, and we've been sent them to check again.

Having said that, we usually won't let a child move just because a parent thinks they should. There are instances where they would fall into the category of harming the child. Sometimes having a child in a set which is too high for them can mean they can't access the work and might miss out on the scaffolding or support you'd get in a lower set. My top sets have 32 students, for example- while my set 7 has 10, and two TAs. It can also confer a status on the sets which is incorrect. I know parents want their children to be in a high set because they somehow feel aspirationally it's a sign their child is destined for greatness- but that really isn't always the best place for them.

I don't know how big your child's school is- but I haven't worked in many where this would be the Head of Year's concern. They may well have no idea. Contact the subject heads. They should be able to explain their choices. NEVER be afraid of being 'that parent'. I love 'that parent'!

This with bells on

We are a smaller school so have 6 sets in year 10.but they are based off all of the data accross the year plus social and behaviour. Is it suitable to put them with friends, will they struggle being in a top set and a definite higher paper

Our current 11s have set 1 all doing higher. Set 2 is doing all higher lessons but some of the students will only sit foundation papers because there is a cross over there. The other 4 sets will do foundation.

This is based in science. If you are talking about science sets if they are doing combined science there are 3 subjects to take into account there. They might be strong in one but weaker in the other 2

noblegiraffe · 18/07/2023 20:01

School setting policy should just be 'teachers will use their professional judgement'.

AllTheThunderstorms · 18/07/2023 20:06

Absolutely agree with @Sideorderofchips and @Curioushorse this is exactly the same in my school (although we have 7-8 sets per year group).

Nellle · 18/07/2023 20:14

The EEF's research into setting is general across all subjects. Though I know there is much resistance in Maths in particular and it's not my subject so I wouldn't argue.

There is no claim that mixed is better for attainment, just that setting isnt either and that it is worse for other things, like confidence and engagement for all but the top end. And sadly that setting tends to perpetuate the status of disadvantaged students.

Nellle · 18/07/2023 20:15

noblegiraffe · 18/07/2023 20:01

School setting policy should just be 'teachers will use their professional judgement'.

100%

noblegiraffe · 18/07/2023 20:17

The EEF's research into setting is general across all subjects.

It also got slated for cherry-picking for 'social justice' reasons.

We did mixed ability with Y7 one year and it was bloody awful, particularly for the kids at the lower end. We went back to setting.

Nellle · 18/07/2023 20:20

Interesting! I'm confident it will work for us - our enormous growing school has got a problem with horrendous sink sets and I feel so sorry for many of the students in those.

I'm hopeful but will always adapt to what's going on.

Sideorderofchips · 18/07/2023 21:40

We've done both sets and mixed in science here. Problem with mixed is you end up failing both your higher and lower ability students because it's very difficult to differentiate the work accross 3 levels in one classroom to meet everyone's needs.

Also the lower the set the less students there are in it so by the bottom set there are max 10 kids in there which can benefit from more teacher attention to help them to do the work compared to a top set with 30 kids who are capable of getting on with it.

It also means that teachers can lesson plan based around their students needs and focus on them

Nellle · 18/07/2023 22:57

Everyone's school is different. In mine, the low aspirations, poor behaviour and over-representation of disadvantaged children in the lower sets means they have to go. I wouldn't want my child in one of those groups.

Nellle · 18/07/2023 22:57

Sorry for the detail OP!

Nellle · 18/07/2023 22:59

*derail 🤦‍♀️

noblegiraffe · 18/07/2023 22:59

Nellle · 18/07/2023 22:57

Everyone's school is different. In mine, the low aspirations, poor behaviour and over-representation of disadvantaged children in the lower sets means they have to go. I wouldn't want my child in one of those groups.

Putting those kids who really struggle to access the curriculum in classes of 30 with no support hasn't worked out that well in my school.

Nellle · 18/07/2023 23:10

Appreciate it didn't work for you. We've done loads of CPD and will continue. We know what the challenges are and have practical strategies to tackle them. In my local area we're behind the curve to be honest. It's not revolutionary; options subjects have been doing it successfully forever.

noblegiraffe · 18/07/2023 23:18

There's a reason some subjects are tiered!

Original poster
Siciliansummer · 18/07/2023 23:21

This is all so varied and so interesting.

for DS, the policy is very bluntly written. No subjectivity, purely ranked on exam data.

now maybe school have shit themselves in the foot with this BUT means we should have more grounds to challenge no?

OP posts:
Starlightstarbright2 · 18/07/2023 23:25

I queried why my Ds was been moved up … The teacher said it wasn’t - my Ds thought he was . It was a sideways move - as there were so many children may be put in for higher or lower paper . Not everything is at it seems

00100001 · 19/07/2023 06:33

How do you know what set he is in??

How do you know the results of every child in the year?

What disadvantage do you think your child will have by being in the allocated set?

What makes you think he won't be able to move sets mid year?

What result did your child get?

How many sets are there, and how many "top" sets are there?

What options has your son taken ? Will this affect his time table?

Why are you so focused on his set in one subject?

redskytwonight · 19/07/2023 07:33

Siciliansummer · 18/07/2023 23:21

This is all so varied and so interesting.

for DS, the policy is very bluntly written. No subjectivity, purely ranked on exam data.

now maybe school have shit themselves in the foot with this BUT means we should have more grounds to challenge no?

You can challenge all you like, but the school doesn't have to change your child's set. There will be an element of discretion in the policy, so it's not simply a case of the top 30 children go in Set 1, next 30 go in Set 2 etc. A child who performs out of the ordinary (in either direction) in the exams won't simply be put in the matching set.

My DS did very well in his Year 9 exams and he was then in Set 3. His result was better than some of his friends in Set 1. In the event he did get moved - to Set 2, which was probably the right place, but the teacher assured me that even in Set 3, he would access the same material as Set 2. It seems to me that rather than spending energy complaining about the policy that you would be better off focussing on your DC's teaching and if it limits them.

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