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Anyone got a Scout or Explorer going to WSJ in South Korea?

630 replies

lazylittlelucy · 16/07/2023 16:57

Just thought I'd start a thread for parents if there are any on here.
My 17yo DD is going as an Explorer and is getting excited now.
Anyone else?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
33
Brodpit · 07/08/2023 22:07

MrsFionaCharming · 07/08/2023 16:24

To add to that, he kept in touch with a few of the Korean leaders, all of whom he’s spoken to recently are so embarrassed by their organisation. So it’s not just other countries the jamboree has let down, it’s their own volunteers as well.

My DS (one of the younger Explorers in a hotel) said that Koreans have been apologising to them in the street and an elderly man was crying when he spoke to him. They are so embarrassed about it.

MrsBigTed · 07/08/2023 22:15

RedToothBrush · 07/08/2023 13:40

As to children becoming unwell, the 2500 quoted out of 45,000 (5%) won’t all be related to situations on site. We took our units away for 24 hours. Out of 30 children, 5 needed medical attention. All related to pre existing medical conditions that would have happened regardless of whether they were on camp or not. One was sent with a sickness bug.

The problems come when the medical centre is closed or overwhelmed. There is a photo on Korean newspaper websites with a sign literally saying 'medical centre closed'.

Low calorie intake and lack of water combined with other medical conditions, will cause issues too. (Especially if there are specific dietary needs not being catered for). Never mind the sanitation concerns.

So in terms of comparison purely on the % I don't think it tells the whole story.

Even if you have people getting sick, how well you are able to deal with the issue is even more relevant. It sounds like they have been lucky to escape a major incident given the conditions and numbers involved. The key point is the need to draft in extra medical staff rather than the number of incidents themselves. How many incidents that should have been seen to went untreated in the absence of sufficient medical staff?

DH has been having conversations with another leader about the site access today. They have been gobsmacked at the lack of road access for an event with 40k because they know how much road access for medical issues are needed for events with a tenth of that. The nearest hospital was 45mins by road or 15 mins by helicopter too - without all the pedestrians getting in the way.

They also talked about catering and cleaning for that number and their experience from larger UK events (I note they HAVE NOT been involved in running these so are observing from being leaders participating) and even they can see the numbers of things like shower blocks, toilets, cleaners, road access and number of medics for 43,000 not adding up. I don't think UK expectations here are over the top either - there really is a minimum number you can have without running into issues and the event seems to be well below any sane levels. It's blind bat level fuckwittery not just mildly under resourcing.

The various committees running the event had absolutely no idea what they were doing and clearly no experience to draw from. It's almost like they picked a random number for the cleaners they would need and went with it rather than checking ratios on participants to toilet cleaners from any comparible event such as a festival. COVID shouldn't have effected ability to check this information which even not available locally is information that could be found - people haven't learnt to shit more in four years due to covid. Countries lacking in good events management won't even be considered for future events as a hosts as a result and that in itself limits the future of WSJ. (I'm noting how the Commonwealth Games looks likely to be defunct due to hosting issues)

I think that's where I start to get troubled by oversight. It begs questions about how much information on this type of planning detail was shared and when and with whom. The four basics - sanitation, food, water and shelter were ALL well below where they should have been. In combination it's a disaster waiting to happen, not just an oversight.

It hasn't been minor issues which you expect at any event - they've been significant level issues. It sounds like UK scouting did find out about the issues but relatively late in the day. Would I expect UK Scouting to be the ones looking at the numbers of toilets or medics ordered? Probably not. That's what World Scouting is for. So where was World Scouting on this? Totally asleep at the wheel, quite clearly. These things should have been questioned months and months ago. It shouldnt be coming up in the last few weeks before the event. Does this mean UK scouting is going to have to do a bunch more work checking the homework of World Scouting?

And again it comes back to the amount the South Korean government spent on this - where the hell did the money go? And where was the diplomatic power and control and was this abused?

On the point of world scouting checking homework - you can google for wosm's guidelines for hosting the events (I'd link, but IDK how). The guidelines make clear that their role is homework checking, it's the hosts job to make sure it's organised. So it really becomes checking that the homework checker has checked the homework... BUT it becomes difficult, because if the host says there will be enough toilets on a site that doesn't exist yet, you can't exactly go and count them.

RedToothBrush · 07/08/2023 23:15

Hi I'm from World Scouting. How many toilets have you got for the camp?

Oh we haven't got them on site yet so you can't count them.

Ok so can I check your paperwork for how many you've got on order then please?

Oh Ok I'll send it over.

----

Keep in mind after complaints last week the president was able to rustle up an extra fifty pretty damn quickly. I think they've put a total of 65 extras in now.

My point being you don't need to count the extra toilets and even then upon finding there was a shortage as the first contingents started to arrive, there was a window of opportunity before the complaints started where the problem could have been spotted and resolved.

My suspicion that camp by committee made this near impossible for World Scouting to raise issues more than an inability to count them or check invoices. The lack of accountability this created is the issue and World Scouting didn't do enough to raise hell of it. Too busy being polite and diplomatic no doubt.

UsingChangeofName · 07/08/2023 23:55

My point being you don't need to count the extra toilets and even then upon finding there was a shortage as the first contingents started to arrive, there was a window of opportunity before the complaints started where the problem could have been spotted and resolved.

They did try to.
The IST and volunteers who went out in roles to do with the National Team have been working round the clock to try to fix things since they got out there. But this is where the cultural differences of how it has been organised / who it has been organised by have kicked in.
Solutions that were suggested and would have been started upon days before the units arrived, were delayed and delayed by the hierarchical systems and processes in place and the lack of anyone from the Korean organisers to be able to say "Yes. Good solution. We'll do that."

stealtheatingtunnocks · 08/08/2023 00:48

I wonder what Korean for “shambles” is

Mylobsterteapot · 08/08/2023 07:08

The very different culture to fixing problems has not helped. I was IST in Japan 8 years ago, and it was very similar. Here’s a very minor example.
The sign for our activity was wrong. It was printed on thick white plastic, so the obvious idea was to turn it round and re-write it with a Sharpie. It would have taken 10 seconds.
We weren’t allowed. We had ask our boss, who asked his boss and so on. The answer came back down the chain, and a new sign was promised. It took a few days to arrive, so we had confused Scouts.

stealtheatingtunnocks · 08/08/2023 08:58

That’s interesting. I have read in the press that no one was ultimately in charge, all nameless faces making reckons far away from the camp.

sharpies fix most things in my experience. But they would be evidence of a mistake.

is there a cultural issue where mistakes are seen as shameful and should be hidden in Korea?

PuttingDownRoots · 08/08/2023 09:17

I'm actually feeling a bit sorry for the Polish team right now... they are going to be under extreme pressure to get everything right, and have back up plans for every eventuality. The next one will be extremely scrutinised.

PuttingDownRoots · 08/08/2023 09:18

Also... hope the teenagers in Seoul are having some interesting experiences now after the initial disappointment.

stealtheatingtunnocks · 08/08/2023 09:24

And that the kids who are still in a muddy swamp camp are able to be shifted if that weather hits.

im worried for them. Scouting has had a lot of (deserved) bad press. This is t going to help .

man in the female shower? No space between adult and kid tents? What?

LucyLastik · 08/08/2023 09:58

Tourism jamboree is about right. These kids are basically on holiday now. When I spoke to my DS, he was happy to leave the site of the "scamboree"

handmademitlove · 08/08/2023 10:56

My DD is having a good time in Seoul. They have opportunities for cultural events and other visits. They have also said that they are meeting lots of locals who are very apologetic about what has happened - they are quick to reassure everyone they meet that they think Korea is amazing and are happy to be there. They are sharing group badges etc with the kids in the families they meet as a way of showing how grateful they are to the people of Seoul......

I do wish the media would pick up on the positive aspects of this. The scouts are all amazing and the media should be celebrating their activities rather than dwelling on the negatives.

handmademitlove · 08/08/2023 10:56

DS even!

lazylittlelucy · 08/08/2023 11:08

Yes. The people of Seoul have been nothing but lovely and apologetic. One man paid for a patrol's dinner by way of an apology. They are having a great time, just different from what they expected. And they are hoping that they will continue to meet the other international scouts as they return to Seoul after the evacuation.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 08/08/2023 13:18

What happened. Where did the money go?

https://m.koreatimes.co.kr/pages/article.asp?newsIdx=356611

The ongoing World Scout Jamboree is a major global event the Korean government had been preparing for over six years with an allocated budget of 117.1 billion won ($89 million).

AND

While lawmakers' thorough scrutiny is expected on the problem-plagued Jamboree and organizers' negligent management, recent revelations have already shed light on the botched priorities in budget expenditure in preparation for the quadrennial festival.

According to data provided by the North Jeolla Provincial Government, about 74 percent of the total 117.1 billion won, which amounts to about 87 billion won, was spent on the operation of the organizing committee. This includes spending for travel arrangements and a K-pop concert which is set to be held during the closing ceremony.

Just 23.5 billion won was spent building campsite infrastructure, including water and sewage systems, parking lots and cooling tunnels. Only 10 percent of the total spending, or 12.9 billion won, was used for the construction of showers, toilets and drinking water facilities at the campsite.

In the years leading up to the event, 15.6 billion won was spent in 2021 under the previous Moon Jae-in government, while 39.8 billion won and 61.7 billion won were used in 2022 and 2023, respectively. The incumbent Yoon Suk Yeol administration took office in May 2022.

Speculation is also emerging that government officials wasted the budget on business trips with no apparent relevance to the Jamboree.

According to data from the Ministry of Personnel Management, officials from related bodies including the Ministry of Gender Equality and Family, North Jeolla Provincial Government and Buan County made some 100 overseas business trips over the last six years citing preparations for the Jamboree.

In May 2018, five provincial government officials went on an eight-day trip to Switzerland and Italy with the aim to study "successful management cases of the Jamboree event." But these European countries have never hosted a Jamboree.

In October 2019, four Buan County officials traveled to London and France for 10 days in preparation for the Jamboree. London has not hosted the quadrennial festival since the inaugural event was held there in 1920, and the last Jamboree hosted by France was in 1947 in Moisson.

Here's some more details:
https://koreajoongangdaily.joins.com/2023/08/07/national/socialAffairs/Korea-World-Scout-Jamboree-business-trips/20230807173928902.html

Broadly speaking, the trips found in the records can be divided into two categories. The first includes 54 trips related to securing the bid, mostly in the two years leading up to Saemangeum's final selection in 2017. The other trips were generally listed for the purpose of "exploration of advanced cultures" in preparation for hosting the event.

While seemingly legitimate at first glance, upon closer inspection, some of the details in the reports filed by officials appear questionable, including cruises and tours of overseas hotspots unrelated to the scouts.

In late May 2018, a group of five North Jeolla provincial officials took an eight-day business trip to Switzerland and Italy for the purpose of "interviewing key people and conducting case studies for the successful hosting of World Scout Jamboree events."

However, the only itinerary items related to the Jamboree were a meeting with the former chairman of the European Scout Region on the first day and a visit to the World Scout Centre, also known as the Kandersteg International Scout Centre, in the Swiss Alps on the second day.

However, the only itinerary items related to the Jamboree were a meeting with the former chairman of the European Scout Region on the first day and a visit to the World Scout Centre, also known as the Kandersteg International Scout Centre, in the Swiss Alps on the second day.

From the third day, the group visited famous tourist destinations in Switzerland, such as the resort town of Interlaken and the city of Lucerne. They then visited Italy's Milan and Venice over the next several days.

Switzerland and Italy had never even hosted a World Scout Jamboree before, but the officials tried to find a link, writing up a vision for Saemangeum to be developed "as a differentiated city like Venice in Italy to pass onto future generations."

Notably, some of the descriptions of tourist destinations they visited, such as the Piazza San Marco in Venice, appeared to be copied directly from a travel article printed in a local media outlet in March 2014 without changing a single word.

In October 2019, four officials from the Buan County Office went on a 10-day business trip to London and Paris. Records show they filed the purpose of the trip as an "on-site study of the Jamboree in Britain and a study on excellent festivals in Paris." However, London held the World Scout Jamboree in 1920, some 103 years ago, and the event was never hosted in Paris.

The itinerary for the business trip was also comprised of tours, including visits to Buckingham Palace and Westminster Abbey in England and stops at the Grape Harvest Festival in Montmartre and the Abbey of Mont-Saint-Michel in France.

The business trip report included descriptions that officials attended the wine-tasting event in Montmartre considering how to incorporate aspects of it into a "drinking festival" representative of Buan County.

Local officials also went on cruise trips, claiming it was to prepare for the Jamboree.

Buan County is pushing for the creation of a cruise port, separate from the hosting of the Jamboree. When the Jamboree bid was confirmed, county officials made two business trips under the pretext of "promoting the Jamboree venue through the creation of a cruise port of call."

This included a seven-day cruise trip from Shanghai, China in October 2019 for 13 officials, and another cruise tour from Taiwan in December 2019, for five officials to visit Taipei 101 Observation Deck and Keelung port.

Some officials didn't report their business trips, claiming it was confidential.

A group of five officials from the North Jeolla provincial government and the Korea Scout Association made a 12-day trip from Dec. 12, 2016 to Belgium, Italy, Austria, Slovakia and the Czech Republic to promote Saemangeum's Jamboree bid.

However, further details were not included as it was "not listed in the report due to confidentiality and security issues."

However, further details were not included as it was "not listed in the report due to confidentiality and security issues."

Another 11-day business trip to the 24th World Scout Jamboree hosted by the United States in July 2019 included eight people, including five Buan County Council members and three staffers. The purpose of the business trip was reportedly to "visit the U.S. Jamboree and learn how it operates."

They stayed in Charleston, West Virginia, where the Jamboree was actually held, for only two days. The rest of the trip was spent visiting the Statue of Liberty, Wall Street, Chelsea Market and Times Square in New York and Washington. The business trip cost 32.94 million won ($25,230).

"It seems that there was not much practical preparation during the eight years since Korea was selected as a candidate site," Kim Seong-soo, a professor of political science and diplomacy at Hanyang University, said.

There is now a blame going on between the current government and the previous political party over who is to blame. But it looks pretty clear to me that there's fairly obvious corruption from both which has been laid bare here.

A government enquiry has promised apparently.

So it's a good old fashioned corruption scandal which world scouting has been a major victim of. I do wonder what legal action can and will be taken. I suspect UK Scouting really will be looking hard at this.

It's bloody dreadful.

In the meantime the other contingents looks to be being housed in mainly dormitories and college accommodation - with many in Seoul itself. The Norwegians and the Swedes are joining the US at the US military base. So I suspect there will be plenty more opportunity before the end of the week for British scouts to interact with some of the other contingents.

In terms of activities available, well:
The Seoul Metropolitan Government announced on Tuesday evening that it had prepared an expanded program of tourism and cultural activities to welcome the scouts, including kayaking, paddle boarding and yachting on the Han River, hiking on Mount Inwang and Mount Bugak and rock climbing at outdoor parks in Daechi, Gangbyeon and Ttukseom starting Wednesday.

So in short there wasn't enough toilets for kids because Korean government officials saw Scouting as an opportunity to go to sightseeing at Buckingham and go on international piss ups.

That's pretty damn special.

RedToothBrush · 08/08/2023 13:48

Associated Press are reporting that the Norwegian contingent didn't wait for the official evacuation. Obviously faith and trust in the Korean government has behind the scenes been sky high:

Hundreds of scouts from Norway had already left the the site on Monday, citing concerns about the complications of moving together with tens of thousands of other Scouts. Geir Olav Kaase, leader of the Norwegian contingent, said the Scouts arrived at their hotels in Incheon by 9 p.m. Monday.

The Taiwanese also left of their own accord on Monday citing safety concerns...

JemimaTab · 08/08/2023 16:02

It gets worse. What a terrible mess.

MrsFionaCharming · 08/08/2023 16:06

Bloody hell. All those jollies at the expense of kids fundraising.

RedToothBrush · 08/08/2023 16:07

South Korea has a bid in progress to host the Asia-Pacific Scout Jamboree in 2025, which expects to attract approximately 20,000 participants from around 40 countries. What do we think the chances of them winning are?

The Polish President Andrzej Duda, who was due to arrive in South Korea on today but has canceled his trip over safety concerns

Duda was planning to visit Korea for a four-day trip that would include an official scheduled visit to the Saemangeum World Scout Jamboree in Buan, North Jeolla Province, and a visit to Gwangju. The Polish leader was expected to see how the Jamboree was being hosted in the country, according to local reports. Poland is set to hold the next World Scout Jamboree in Gdansk in 2027.

Polish Ambassador to Korea Piotr Ostaszewski, however, denied reports that Duda was canceling the trip because of the Jamboree, noting the reason was due to safety concerns over the approaching typhoon. South Korean Prime Minister Han Duck-soo also stated that President Duda was canceling the trip, making the judgment that it wouldn't be safe for him to visit Korea.

Yeah. Probably wise to suddenly get concerned about 'the weather'.

It seems the evacuation has been completed

Interesting that a number of nations with Muslim participants opted to stay at locations close to the site after evacuation due to concerns about continuing to getting halal food and knowing it was available locally.

This article gives some insight into how embassies got dragged into matters and weren't terrible happy about how the evacuation happened. It echoes the chaos of the UK withdrawal tbh.

https://m.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20230808000600
Foreign embassies in Seoul have expressed concern over the safety and well-being of the young delegates in the World Scout Jamboree, as tens of thousands of participants were being relocated to other parts of the country unexpectedly to avoid an incoming typhoon.

The embassies' major concern is the condition of accommodations offered to the 36,000 Scouts as they began their early departure from the Saemangeum campsite in North Jeolla Province Tuesday morning. They also want to have clear and specific updates from the Korean government, since they will be dispersed across the country.

"The briefing provided by the Ministry of the Interior and Safety this morning (Tuesday morning) was not very clear to us. It should be more specific, considering the sensitivity of the situation and the potential for mishaps," a diplomat said, requesting anonymity.

The diplomat emphasized that the safety and well-being of the participants are more important than ensuring a positive festival experience.

One of the key concerns is the need to track down the exact location and status of the jamboree members to address urgent queries from concerned family members in their home countries.

"At this time, the main concern is having a safe relocation of the contingents to adequate places where they will have proper accommodation and food," the Colombian Embassy in Seoul said in a statement.

The government said Monday that they plan to provide emergency lodging in administrative and private educational facilities in cities that would not be directly affected by Typhoon Khanun, which is likely to hit the east coast on Thursday.

While challenges posed by the heat wave and Typhoon Khanun persist, a Slovakian diplomat noted that the Slovakian delegation has been faring well under the circumstances.

"We are closely monitoring the situation and are in constant contact with the leader of the Slovakian delegation," he said, adding the Slovakian Embassy is ready to support the team.

"We welcome the decision to move jamboree members due to the heat wave and typhoon."

Lucas Pavez, consul at the Chilean Embassy in Seoul, told The Korea Herald that he welcomes the early departure decision and said that "it was needed."

He, however, said that more swift, concise and timely briefings will greatly help embassies in responding to queries from family members.

A Peruvian diplomat mentioned that three of their Scouts initially experienced symptoms of dehydration due to the heat wave, but they are now en route to the relocation point in Goyang, Gyeonggi Province.

"Peruvian Embassy officials plan to visit the members to ensure their well-being," he told The Korea Herald.

One Egyptian diplomat said they hope their Scouts will go back with "positive experiences and memories despite all the challenges they have faced."

Meanwhile, Hong Seok-in, ambassador for public diplomacy at the Foreign Ministry, briefed the emergency evacuation plan to 78 foreign embassies in a second meeting on Monday.
Hong took note of the embassies’ opinions and reaffirmed his commitment to addressing the safety of the jamboree participants as a top priority.

The 2023 Saemangeum World Scout Jamboree Task Force, led by Vice Minister Oh Young-joo, was formed on Friday to communicate with the diplomatic corps in Korea on a 24-hour basis, according to the Foreign Ministry.

That definitely explains why some nations decided to evacuate unilaterally.

Reading up on the Czech contingent who were helped previously by their Embassy, they've gone to a military school in Seoul. They again, had assistance from their own Embassy (interesting).

There's an article in English which gives a bit of information. One of the final lines states that they were looking to reconnect with the British which is really nice to hear too.

https://english.radio.cz/czech-scouts-very-good-spirits-despite-government-ordered-evacuation-korean-8790787

Reading through the Czech twitter posts one of the challenges they were involved with was helping the Slovakian and Ukrainian scouts because although there was less of them, they also had less adults to help and to go with them to their destination. Again stuff that is fascinating to read about in terms of the logistics (and safeguarding) needed with the evacuation.

LucyLastik · 08/08/2023 16:23

The more I read/watch about this mess, the angrier it's making me. It will be interesting to see how it plays out upon the scouts return.

AnotherThingToThinkAbout · 08/08/2023 16:26

I am so worried about some of the scouts in smaller contingents from smaller countries, those without embassies behind them. I really hope they are being looked after.

toomuchlaundry · 08/08/2023 16:27

How small can some contingents be?

LucyLastik · 08/08/2023 16:32

toomuchlaundry · 08/08/2023 16:27

How small can some contingents be?

I think Kuwait had one participant, so pretty small!