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Anyone got a Scout or Explorer going to WSJ in South Korea?

630 replies

lazylittlelucy · 16/07/2023 16:57

Just thought I'd start a thread for parents if there are any on here.
My 17yo DD is going as an Explorer and is getting excited now.
Anyone else?

OP posts:
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33
CheersToMe · 06/08/2023 18:35

Well said. That has been my experience.

MendedDrum · 06/08/2023 18:53

I'm not currently involved in Guiding or Scouting but I come from a long line of it. My Akela grandmother was as tough and pragmatic as they come but she also recognised the importance of kindness as part of the wider picture of resilience.

MorePressureMoreRelease · 06/08/2023 18:54

I'm a scout leader. No DC at this WSJ but some at precious ones.

It is my observation that parents often feel these sort of disappointments more strongly and for longer than their DC. It is a lot of money and a huge time commitment in terms of prep but our Scouts are being looked after and even if the experience isn't what was anticipated they are having an unforgettable experience because all their leaders are working exceptionally hard to make sure this happens.

There really are so many truly awful things happening in this world. They will all grow and learn from this.

There will also be some sort of post mortem in the hope that similar does not happen again. For now I'm focusing on the positive messages and images that are coming from my districts contingents.

MrKenTuckey · 06/08/2023 19:06

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

VivaDixie · 06/08/2023 19:25

@missingthewinchesterboys and everyone else who has a child in SK - I am thinking of you all ❤️

My DS is 14 and applied to go, he didn't get through past selection day and was gutted. If he had phoned me 'flat' I would be worried too. We have this healthy dynamic where if I am overreacting he would tell me to stop worrying and I would know he is fine. I am sure the kids are 'fine' but as a parent you won't be. It is natural instinct

So could some posters here please have some fucking compassion for our worried parents

missingthewinchesterboys · 06/08/2023 19:33

@RedToothBrush if you cannot see where you have personally attacked me then 'I really can't win'

I've been told I'm too distressed, that I should know better etc- that's quite obnoxious. If you actually read my posts up to that I don't think I'd said anything to warrant that at all.

Nowhere have I said I expect more from the leaders onsite. I know how the media policy works thank you. I get the black out. I really do.

First time I post about this situation I was @ and accused of handwringing and hyperbole about hotel ratings. Of which all I actually said was it was sad and disappointing they weren't getting the jamboree experience they were expecting. Apparently that isn't allowed.

I am a leader. I've run every section at some point and was a venture scout in my time too. I've taken scouts abroad and I do a lot in the district. I know whats what. That doesn't stop me as a parent from being concerned, disappointed, upset and hurt. I am allowed those feelings. This thread was a space for parents first and foremost.

For people who don't have kids over there to jump on this thread and be patronising is just uncalled for.
Having people you know is not the same thing as having a child there and the lack of empathy shown by some of the so called leaders on here is breathtaking. Accusing me of being one of those parents that make leaders leave.

I was actually the parent telling the contingent parents to stop sharing scary new reports before the uk pulled them out. I was the voice of reason and always will be.

But I'm on an anonymous forum here and I needed somewhere to share how I was feeling.

As for my own group - we have an active WhatsApp, I see these people at church every week. Some I've know for over 30years. To say that they might not know is disingenuous when it's was in all the papers.

whojamaflip · 06/08/2023 19:37

Scout leader here - when we take kids away on camp we use a system called "in touch" which is where a dedicated leader who is staying at home is the point of contact for parents. This removes the need for leaders on the ground so to speak to field calls from worried parents and is used to update parents through a single point of contact.

Each unit should have a nominated in touch leader based in the Uk who should be relaying information through to parents of young people who are on the jamboree.

The leaders who have gone out to SK will have enough to do without having to phone 30 or so individual families to bring them up to speed with what's happening. Please also remember they are volunteers with scouting.

My own Dc have done international camps as well as many within the Uk and this has always been the system in the 10 years I have been involved.

I totally get that parents are worried and disappointed but I believe the UK contingent has made the right call in leaving the site.

Covidisdrivingmecrazy · 06/08/2023 19:47

I'm an ex leader. Both of my kids applied to Korea and didn't get in (one has just finished explorers belt that they applied for after). My friend is a leader and his child is there but I haven't texted him as I expect they are stressed enough without loads of texts. You've got to trust the system. ItIt Doesn't mean I don't care.

Covidisdrivingmecrazy · 06/08/2023 19:49

And explorer belt and jamboree are country led events. Our current gsl wasn't a leader last time jamboree was on. They had never heard of explorer belt. Don't underestimate the institutional gaps and knowledge lost in covid.

Covidisdrivingmecrazy · 06/08/2023 19:49

County not country

Covidisdrivingmecrazy · 06/08/2023 19:51

The key thing is literally getting all the children safe and well in a safe risk assessed environment. Everything else comes after. By and large this has can achieved in record time.

BlossomCloud · 06/08/2023 19:54

Agree with you entirely @missingthewinchesterboys

MrKenTuckey · 06/08/2023 20:07

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

UsingChangeofName · 06/08/2023 20:14

Covidisdrivingmecrazy · 06/08/2023 19:51

The key thing is literally getting all the children safe and well in a safe risk assessed environment. Everything else comes after. By and large this has can achieved in record time.

This

and see the 'In touch' comment above

I know two people in our County (CC and ACC International) who have done nothing else over the last 96 hours but deal with supporting the situation as best as they can. Well, okay, the CC has also had some safeguarding issues to deal with, regarding other situations on other camps, but the majority of time has been on WSJ related matters. Not just our Unit, but all the IST and the Scouters from our County out there with the National Teams. Obviously - with the time difference - this has included 3am phone calls.

All parents have had e-mails from National HQ. I am surprised to hear that parents in any unit haven't got their own WhatsApp and Facebook groups for Unit messages - that seems strange to me. How have you all been communicating for the last 2 years ? Ultimately though, the people in the UK can't physically do anything anymore than you parents. They won't pass on individuals' perspectives, they will pass on confirmed messages directly from the Unit Leaders and others on the ground, known to them. As should rightly be the case. The Unit Leaders on the ground have enough to deal with themselves (yes, even the ones who have been hospitalised themselves but are still looking after the youngsters in their care).

marchdays · 06/08/2023 20:20

This reply has been deleted

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

I'm sorry to hear that, is the In Touch person not making contact? I would suggest contacting them.

I have a dc at the jamboree and can't fault their section leaders who have kept our Facebook group updated and also the in touch contact has been in touch.

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2023 23:40

whojamaflip · 06/08/2023 19:37

Scout leader here - when we take kids away on camp we use a system called "in touch" which is where a dedicated leader who is staying at home is the point of contact for parents. This removes the need for leaders on the ground so to speak to field calls from worried parents and is used to update parents through a single point of contact.

Each unit should have a nominated in touch leader based in the Uk who should be relaying information through to parents of young people who are on the jamboree.

The leaders who have gone out to SK will have enough to do without having to phone 30 or so individual families to bring them up to speed with what's happening. Please also remember they are volunteers with scouting.

My own Dc have done international camps as well as many within the Uk and this has always been the system in the 10 years I have been involved.

I totally get that parents are worried and disappointed but I believe the UK contingent has made the right call in leaving the site.

Exactly.

It is not the responsibility of 'all the other leaders' to do shit. Mainly because it makes the situation worse not better.

The in touch system has been developed over many years to deal with complex situations and to deal with parents who start going completely bonkers, when the leaders onsite have enough shit to deal with and all the leaders at home all aren't harassed to death by parents. Its also why, for the most part, kids are discouraged from contacting parents whilst on camp. Because parents have a habit of BECOMING a massive part of the problem and hindering what the leaders need to do.

Camps have a limited number of leaders assigned to them for a reason. To stop leaders 'burning out' and to spread the load. To protect the kids onsite. Because of too many cooks spoiling the broth. To ensure there is a clear boundary between parents, kids and leaders. One that is more 'professional' than 'pally'.

Each unit should have a communication system thats being set up from the beginning - exclusively for an international camp. It shouldn't be connected to regular groups and thats for a reason. This is precisely to keep things separate. To give some emotional distance too - indeed there are safeguarding purposes to this. Its not appropriate for a leader to be randomly contacting parents with sympathy if they are not involved with a trip for this reason. Its overly friendly.

You wouldn't expect a kid's previous yr3 teacher to be contacting yr6 parents if there was a problem on a trip expressing sympathy when they know fuck all about the situation on the ground, have no additional information and were just doing so 'to be nice'. It'd be fucking weird. So why this daft expectation of scout leaders from parents???

Its clear UK Scouting have made the right call here. Its a fucking mess thats going to, with the best will in the world, going to take time to sort. The crisis point has been passed - this situation now has been assessed to be better than a lack of very basic food, sanitation and appropriate shelter. This is the priority. Not parents. The next priority is to get the event up and running so the kids are doing things again. Which will take time. Again the priority is not the parents.

The responsibility and pressure of doing all this is intense. And genuinely there is very little that any uk leaders can do here. The last thing they need is extra pressure from parents. The UK leaders can not pressure their contacts in Seoul on behalf of the parents. Its just not fair to do so.

To put this into context, one of the people we know there is an 18 year old IST. She's capable but been thoroughly been thrown in the deep end here. She's from a scouting family. DH has known her for years and years. She's the type of person, parents are effectively piling on the pressure with by saying they aren't getting enough information. Information she is actually unlikely to have herself even now.

I refer back to the point about there being no one in charge for South Korea and everything being a bureacratic mess with multiple parties all being involved. Think what thats like in terms of reorganising accomodation and new activities and how this is being passed up and down between the Embassy, Scouting UK leadership and Korean Authorities. Then how this filters to the unit leaders at the last minute (who probably know little more than the kids at this point).

The kids are clearly telling parents that they are in a safe location now - just like the leaders have - its just that they are bored, fed up, 'feeling flat', and its not the experience they thought they were going to get. But they are ok. They are not in hospital, they have food and water now, they have appropriate shelter and the rest is being sorted and is a work in progress.

If you don't trust the core unit people taking your kids abroad to be able to deal with a crisis appropriately, then don't fucking send your kids abroad. Let them do their job and to inform you as they feel appropriate. Unless your kid is telling you that they are still in danger, then calm down or you are in danger of being the problem. I stress here the involvement of the British Embassy to ensure the safety of the kids involved.

I also stress that no news is pretty much good news in this situation. If there was a significant problem involving a particular child, that information would be being passed on. (Indeed it would be impossible for leaders to keep it secret with mobile phones at this stage in whats happened - in the past there wouldn't have been the same level of contact).

In this scenario putting pressure on leaders is deeply unhelpful and frankly unfair.

We are now at a stage where its not ideal and its all a bit crap compared to expectations, but there isn't the same safety concerns as even a day or two ago. Parents are now at the angry stage rather than the confusion stage - and that is ALWAYS taken out on leaders who aren't responsible for the mess and know very little more than parents. They need to remove the emotion from this, be practical and logical, because having a hissy fit and showing this to their kids only adds to the problem because the kids feed off that. That in turn makes it harder for the leaders on the ground.

Given where things now are at parents realising how they can help rather than add to the problems really is in the best interests of the kids.

Parents sat at home, winding themselves up, expecting a sympathetic ear need to consider that its not just their child. The in touch contact can't do individual messages of support and sympathy. They aren't a counselling service nor have they been trained to be. Think about that. They are there to give emergency information. Thats it. 'Just a simple message' isn't just a simple message - its multiple messages to multiple people that runs the risk of initating multiple full conversations to which you don't have the answers and therefore making parents more not less anxious. Hence why the very basic nature of the 'in touch' person was devised in the first place. To stop leaders getting themselves in a pickle and adding fuel to the problem.

The information put out today by the press, particularly in Korean, laids bare the extent of the problems and why the decision to relocate to Seoul was made and why it was an appropriate call. Its been a logical rational decision by UK Scouting.

One of the major fallouts from this will be leaders who quit because of the pressure and unreasonableness from parents. Its an absoluete guarentee. And parents are liable to make it harder for future international camps to run - even though this mess isn't remotely a problem with individual units risk assessments and planning (that lies with south korea and world scouting). They are the ones who will get the abuse and hassle and will give up hours and hours of their free time (don't forget that as a volunteer job, they will have real life commitments such as full time jobs too - so doing shit until 3am over the last week is a big deal on top of that. Its not the same as being a paid employee to deal with issues).

To say that people who give up hours, days, weeks of their lives to do something for these kids and give them opportunities and to suggest they somehow don't care enough because they haven't sent a text message is really is the height of being insulting.

And I've STILL not seen a GOOD compelling argument about what leaders should be doing thats actually going to help. There is very little to communicate to parents in reality.

DH HAS been worrying about about the explorers he knows there. He's worried about the young leaders he knows there. He's worried about the more senior county and district leaders who are hard to recruit in the first place. He's ALSO now worried about the future and the opportunities of the thousands of kids who weren't lucky enough to go to Korea. How much more it will cost them and how they will have to help shoulder the cost of the mess. How there will be so many more lost opportunities - basic ones, not 'holiday of a lifetime' level ones.

To suggest that leaders who haven't sent a simple one line message don't care is really not appreciating all the many many hours over years given to scouting. This crisis effects everyone in scouting massively. So being given lectures about who is allowed to be concerned, accusing them of being patronising and in what way and how doesn't wash. People who have been in scouting for years should know better than anyone how the system works, how and why the in touch system should work and why parents can be part of the problem rather than support for the kids at crucial moments, why distance is appropriate, why information can't be shared - and it actually is concerning to read about leaders who don't get that. Thats quite aside from the points about how there is a whole world of internal politics over which leaders kids got to go and which didn't (and why there will be a whole load of social awkwardness there in). Ultimately though, if parents who happen to be also leaders don't have the trust here in the unit leaders and intouch contact, then the leaders 'doing the graft' to 'below expectations' might as well just give up scouting completely. Why should they bother? They obviously aren't good enough for theh organisation huh?

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2023 23:45

Parental support is other parents. Not leaders. Leaders are child centred. Not parent centred. Because frankly they haven't the time / energy to pander to that nonsense which is a hiding to nothing.

RedToothBrush · 06/08/2023 23:49

I started on this thread to give / share information both about what was happening and how much leaders could do. I didn't HAVE to.

And it turned into bashing leaders for not doing enough. Cos it always bloody does. ALWAYS.

Cos the leaders don't care or give enough. Or they aren't parents themselves. Or all the other bullshit.

Support your leadership by not being a pain in the arse. Support your kid by not amplifying the negativity and emphasising its the right decision even if its not what they wanted.

oricella · 07/08/2023 05:10

Red, please don't take take 2+2 to make 5. I can see your passion, and much appreciate your additions, but I don't see leader bashing here. I think we all feel it is the right decision. On a human level it is perfectly fair to express on an anonymous forum some disappointment, whether it is for children who get a different experience, or if people who you know socially don't seem aware or don't reach out, whether they are leader or not. That's a human emotion and fine. And by doing it here you're exactly not being a pain to the leaders on site. I hope it doesn't affect your DH future with scouts..

It does seem very much luck of the draw in what is communicated on unit apps. Yes, no news is good news. Anything else, such as a camp walkabout, is a bonus (we seem to have the golden ticket on that). There's lots to learn at an organisational level on communication.. we all think we understand social media, but there's invisible layers that affect discourse (and this thread is evidence of that too), but that's for another day.

DD reports Australia is leaving too and I have little doubt many more will follow now the typhoon/tropical storm is clearly on the cards. I am convinced it played a role in the UK decision and they were simply ahead of the curve.

In the meantime Scouts UK has done a tremendous job and we all are grateful to each and every leader, IST member and staff and volunteers who are otherwise helping to make the best of it.

www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-07/australian-scouts-withdraw-from-camp-before-typhoon-south-korea/102696744

oricella · 07/08/2023 06:20

And here's the WOSM statement - all scouts to leave. Having UK off-site already is enormously helpful at this stage. It takes time to dismantle and get everyone off site.. it took 2 days for UK contingent alone.

Still can't get my head round the authorities still talking about scheduling the K-pop concert on Wednesday evening.. absolute denial of reality, that seems to have been the theme of WSJ25.

scout.org/news/statement-25th-jamboree

Mylobsterteapot · 07/08/2023 06:29

I’m glad they decided to call it off. It sounds like WOSM told the Koreans this time. And it will be beneficial that the two biggest groups, which make up about 20% of the camp have already left.
I feel awful for the leaders, kids, and IST who will all have been working so hard to make the Jamboree work, against some pretty high odds.

toomuchlaundry · 07/08/2023 06:41

What a logistical nightmare for them. Wonder if some of the contingents who aren’t too far from home will just go back to their country rather than be put up in hotels etc

elliemac209 · 07/08/2023 06:55

There is a video statement here about the UK. Doesn't say anything new but hugely reassuring for those of us with kids there to hear about the plans and also just physically see what we all knew deep down- they are teenagers up for a good time and will find it wherever they go.

www.scouts.org.uk/news/2023/august/world-scout-jamboree-update/

CheersToMe · 07/08/2023 07:07

Thank you Oricella and Elliemac209 for the latest updates. I'm relieved that a firm decision has been made by WOSM - the Koreans could throw the kitchen sink at the site to improve conditions but there's nothing that could be done about the incoming weather.

CheersToMe · 07/08/2023 07:16

elliemac209 · 07/08/2023 06:55

There is a video statement here about the UK. Doesn't say anything new but hugely reassuring for those of us with kids there to hear about the plans and also just physically see what we all knew deep down- they are teenagers up for a good time and will find it wherever they go.

www.scouts.org.uk/news/2023/august/world-scout-jamboree-update/

Loved that video - very measured and reassuring. Exactly what I would expect from UK scouting's Chief Executive. What a star and exemplary leader.

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