DP is socially inept/weird but doesn’t realise it. Affecting jobs and friendships. WWYD?

[Tangledbaby]

This is an odd one. Let me start by saying I do love and care about DP. He’s a brilliant father and a great loving/supportive partner. So I am not being ‘mean’ for the sake of it, I’m being brutally honest because I need accurate advice.

If you were to ask my DP he would say he had lots of friends and was social. He wouldn’t identify any problems/issues with how he is socially. The truth however is DP is socially awkward and very uncomfortable/difficult. He says random things in the middle of group conversations and doesn’t understand social ques. It’s painful sometimes to watch in a group setting when he says something completely ‘out there’ or makes a weird joke in the middle of a group discussion. You can see people are thinking ‘wtf’ or they look at eachother like ‘how odd’ or if they are polite they continue their conversation, ignoring whatever weird thing he just said completely.

When it’s just us two he is NOT like this. It’s only in social situations.

Now the problem is, DP has no awareness of this. He also has no idea of how he comes across and how he doesn’t quite ‘fit in’ with the social groups he’s formed, which has resulted in him being left out a lot of the time.

DP seems to be attracted to hanging around with ‘laddish’ type men. However DP himself is NOT laddish at all. But in his mind he must align himself with this type. The result is he gets ‘bantered’ about by his ‘friends’ and left out quite a lot.
Realistically DP is more like the guys from ‘big bang theory’ or ‘inbetweeners’, yet whenever he’s around those types of guys he says they aren’t ‘his type of people’, yet they are just like him!

A few of my friends husbands are lovely men. Really kind, non-laddish, very funny and maybe a bit geeky. I’ve tried to encourage friendships there as DP is social but he says they aren’t his type of people. But the friendships he tries to pursue aren’t reciprocated or if they are it’s because he’s the butt of the joke yet doesn’t realise it or if he does he says it’s ‘just banter’. Which it really isn’t.

What has brought this up is that something very hurtful has happened over the weekend. DP has found out that his colleagues all went out for drinks and didn’t invite him. He was understandably very upset and I think they are awful people to have left 1 person out. No excuse for it. However his work is in construction, all men and I can see how this could happen as all the colleagues I’ve met are nothing like DP.

But I don’t know what to do when DP is completely unaware that he doesn’t fit in with who he wants to be friends with. He also is unaware he’s socially awkward and says weird things. I have tried to gently bring stuff up after a social event to ask him why he said it and he’ll say he was trying to be funny/having a laugh. But is completely oblivious that it was just odd.

An example (as I know one will be asked for):

Group of friends all sitting around discussing house prices and sales.

Friend one: Becky and Dave just put their house up.
Friend two: How much for?
Friend one: 430.
DP: 4 pounds 30! That’s cheap! I’ll buy it!
Friend one and two exchange glances of ‘wtf’ and continue the conversation ignoring DPs comment.

I feel bad for DP but at the same time I can see how annoying and grating his comments would be so understandable why others would choose not to hang out with him or keep him at a friendly distance.
He doesn’t do this stuff just us two at home, only when with others. It’s weird and annoying but he doesn’t acknowledge he does it.

I have no idea if he has ASD as those I know with ASD seem to be aware they’re ‘socially awkward’ or struggle in group settings and seek diagnoses due to this awareness. DP doesn’t have this.

DP has now said a few comments to me which suggests his boss at work finds him annoying. DP has no awareness of this. He’s just laughing at whatever funny joke his boss has made as ‘banter’ but in my head I’m like ‘wtf!! They blatantly don’t like you and find you really annoying!!’ I don’t say this to him! Just reassure him and support him.

He has lost jobs in the past due to him ‘not being the right fit’ in a company. DP said this was down to his lack of experience whereas I know it’s likely because of his social oddness.

Now with what has happened at work I can see it happening again. However I think it’ll keep happening so long as he works in construction as the type of blokes he’s around he really doesn’t ‘gel’ with, but DP has no awareness of this. I have tried gently telling him that construction maybe isn’t for him or suggesting other careers more in line with who DP actually is but it’s like his perception of himself is completely different from reality.

What would you mumsnetters suggest?

Bless him. This sounds a lot like me. I’m very friendly and chatty but not great with social cues. I’m also terrible at interviews even though I’m very good at my job. Interview anxiety just makes me extra awkward and random.

ASD people don’t always realise they’re awkward or if they do can’t work out what they’re doing different to everyone else.

I'd leave him to it.

It sounds as if he's blissfully unaware and apart from the recent incident, happy with his social groups and work environment. I'm not sure you bursting that bubble will help either of you. Yes being left out of things will hurt but it's his life and choice to make about who he works & socialises with. Of course be supportive if his is upset about being left out but I'd be careful about volunteering reasons why you think that happens. If he asks your opinion then that is slightly different.

Perhaps pointing out to him that work colleagues are not the same as true friends might be worth a go though.

My BiL refuses to accept that a member of his family may need support, because 'he's just like me and dad!'

Well yes. And you and Dad were blooming lucky to manage without support and actually aren't managing as well as all that. Just because it's your normal doesn't mean it's fine.

Tricky, and I think you could go with some factual interventions in some situations.

So things like, 'you know sometimes you don't read the room quite the same way the other people do'.

That then allows room to say at a later date 'do you think it could be because sometimes you...'.

Then he would be in a stronger position to self monitor/audit, or even get support if he decided he needed it. Bearing in mind diagnosis can bring with it protections.

If he is neither willing nor able to listen to you, your choices are to leave it alone, or to end things with him. You can't fix him and you can't have his social relationships for him.

Well autism isn't just being socially awkward.

Also, you were attracted to this man.

This is my dad, who is almost certainly autistic. He has never been diagnosed (is now 80), but fits a lot of the criteria. #

The difference is that he had a hobby involving men who mostly fit the same model (alas, now pretty much all dead), and my mother has no idea - she's been with my dad since she was 19, is herself very timid and socially-awkward, and thinks all men are 'like that' (monologuing, misunderstanding situations, oblivious to social cues, unable to read the room, unable to read other people's body language that suggests boredom or a desire to leave a situation in which he has been monologuing for 20 minutes about a car park, or the fact that he's the only person who has understood the times at which it's permitted for cars to use a local bus lane etc etc).

I don't know what you can do. It's interesting that you say he doesn't grasp social cues, yet he's clearly aware enough of situations not to behave like that alone with you. Why is that? Is he in fact putting on the weird jokes thing as a social act because he thinks that is the way to behave in a bunch of laddish lads? Does he believe he's performing a certain type of masculinity and only does it when he's with the mind of men he wants to be like/believes he is like?

Also interesting that he's not interested in pursuing friendships with men who are more like him, or with whom he would fit better.

My godson is autistic, and struggled with reading social cues and body language, so his parents worked on it with him in his teens. But then he knew he was wired differently, had had an early diagnosis, and was prepared to channel all his considerable intelligence and determination into figuring out other people. He's now a student, with friends and relationships. But your DP is either unaware or actively resistant to the idea that he's alienating people and imperilling his work life by his behaviour.

But if he was hurt by being left out of drinks with colleagues -- why did he think this had been done? Is he aware that something he does may have caused this, even if he insists they are just 'bantering' with him?

Thanks for the advice.

I feel hurt and second hand embarrassment for him. He’s lovely and wants to be involved but he just misses the mark (often nowhere near the mark).

When things happen like him being the only one left out of group situations I really for him. But I do agree I can’t change it for him.

To be honest even if I tell him it doesn’t change his perception and I’m guessing it won’t stop it happening again as he can’t see where he ‘goes wrong’.

I find it more odd that when he’s around people more forgiving and similar to him, he can point out their oddness and social faux pas! Yet he cannot see his own.

I guess I worry more that history will keep repeating itself forevermore unless it’s addressed. If it was purely his social life that’s one thing, but work is another. He’ll never progress or be able to settle anywhere ‘long term’ so long as he keeps forcing himself as a round peg into a square hole metaphorically speaking.

Really difficult to do without coming across as critical. Does he feel awkward and upset or is it just you?

What does he do in construction, does he need to socially interact for his job, is he able to do his job?

Maybe this is more about you than him. Before you risk voicing your concerns do you think he can change? How do you think making him self conscious could affect his confidence?

My ex was like this but he did have some awareness that he didn’t fit in. I used to hate the way one group of his old friends treated him but he put up with it just to be included. I agree with pps that if he isn’t aware, no point in going on about it or trying to help him. If he wants your advice then you could point it out but otherwise I would leave him to it.

I will say with my ex, I did have to become very blunt and tell him in advance what was expected of him as his behaviour did reach the point of embarrassment at times eg if we had a meeting with the school or something and he wouldn’t let anyone else speak. He did try to take it on board.

I also found ex got much worse as he got older.

I'm a bit like this in social situations, but I am horribly aware of it. I cringe at the things I've said, sometimes for days, weeks, even years afterwards.

Are you sure he's not aware of it?

The joke re the house price really isn't that bad and would be a fleeting moment.

@DramatisPersonae yes I find it interesting that he avoids others similar to himself. Infact he can even point out their social faux pas!

I don’t know if in private I’m just more used to his quirks so don’t register them as much, if he is more relaxed so doesn’t feel the need to say stuff or a bit of both. Sometimes he will say something monologue-like or whatever and I’ll just tell him to stop droning on.

I also don’t understand why he wants to even work in his particular field so badly. He’s not particularly good at it and he’s never done well despite over a decade of experience. He doesn’t fit in with his colleagues in any company. No one else in his family works in construction so it’s not like it was expected of him or modelled to him.

There are loads of other fields i’m sure his skills would be suited. I think a problem is that he would probably suit ‘lone work’ type jobs but he’s social so wants to work with others, yet he’s treated like crap by others.

It’s very difficult to navigate. He’ll tell me comments people have said in ‘banter’ to him and laugh and not get that it’s clear they are laughing at him not with him and that they aren’t fans of his. But when I say that it’s mean he’ll say ‘it’s just work banter’. But it’s really not.

I suspect he can recognise his own behaviour just fine and doesn't want to accept that is who he is. The fact that he is so reluctant to accept other people like himself says to me that he does not want to be that type of person.

@FromNowOn23 Yes I feel he puts up with a lot of it to be included.

He’s on the periphery of a couple of these ‘lad’ groups and some of the things they’ve done to him really isn’t nice.

Why annoys me is that he could have nice friends who accept him but he doesn’t want to hang around with these nice people. It’s really odd. When I ask him why he says ‘John is nice enough but isn’t my kind of person’. Whereas it’s clear John IS his kind of person.

@Nanna50 hes a project manager on building sites. So he has to talk to the tradesmen and work closely with them. The other site managers are also tradesmen turned office workers so exact same culture.

@ThreadExterminator imagine that type of comment but constantly throughout an entire evening and that’s his only input into the discussion, these weird comments.

Might he have got advice / guidance or even a push growing up that he shouldn’t be “that type of person” and “wasn’t like those other geeks - eugh look at them - no, you’re part of the cool crowd” and he’s really internalised it? Not being accepted or finding a group when young so deciding on a different route and sticking to it like glue?

What are his parents like? Might it have come from them trying to encourage him to fit in? Are they at all similar? What is he like with family?

Friend one: Becky and Dave just put their house up.
Friend two: How much for?
Friend one: 430
DP: 4 pounds 30! That’s cheap! I’ll buy it!
Friend one and two exchange glances of ‘wtf’ and continue the conversation ignoring DPs comment

Oh God, I cringed inside at this as its exactly the sort of thing DH would say. Like a PP says... they just get worse as they get older too.

I've also had to start telling him to stop dominating conversations too, especially important ones like health/kids education/finance/bank stuff.

We have just come back from a holiday which involved visiting historical sites with a guide in small groups. The poor guide got interrupted by DH shouting out 'witty quips' too. I had to start hissing 'shut up FFS we can't hear the guide'!

It does sound like he's internalised some ideas about what it means to be 'masculine' and is applying them very rigidly. But would you want someone else telling you who you should be friends with and who "your type" of people are, much less how you should conduct all your conversations?

I get the impulse to try and figure out why he acts like he does, but even if you knew, what difference would it make? The bottom line is that you cannot change someone else and you cannot help someone who doesn't want to be helped. And yes, this may be a lifelong limiter on his work. The only thing you can do is figure out whether you're up for sticking with that, and if so, how you create some boundaries so you stop fruitlessly trying to give him "help" he doesn't want.

@Talipesmum funny you should say that as I’ve wondered myself.
He grew up on a council estate and pretty much all of his childhood friends are now tradesmen and all naturally very ‘blokey’.

DP has 3 brothers and non of them are blokey as such however they are all socially ‘normal’ and have found their groups on their level. One works in finance and hangs around with similar people.
Another is very ‘indie/band’ type and hangs out with other indie/band kind of guys. The other is academic and hangs out with other academics.

His parents are very quiet and not very social, although they are lovely. But they stick to themselves and the family and don’t go out anywhere outside of that.

So I have no idea why DP is the way he is.

He sounds like my dad who we think has Autistic traits or at least inattentive ADHD as that is what I have.
With inattentive ADHD we can be poor in social situations as we miss social ques due to our inattentiveness - both because we were inattentive as children and missed vital learning periods I guess - but also because we visibly read social cues and can't do that in groups of people or we just miss things as we are thinking of too many things at once. Although we can one-to-one OK I think.
You need to leave him to it - its his world to navigate and he doesn't seem bothered.

@thenightsky i really feel for you! Is your husband aware of his behaviour? Does he know why he does it?

My DP says weird shit in company all the time. Sometimes he makes me absolutely cringe.
Like, we'll be around someone who's heavily pregnant and he'll tell a story about some article he read where a birth goes wrong. He's not trying to be offensive or awkward - he must think 'The situation I'm in currently involves X. And I read a story related to X the other day!'
Or he'll talk over everyone, or get the wrong end of the stick about what people are discussing (this is due to deafness). Or there will be nice conversation happening between 4 of us (2 couples) and he will cut across everyone to ask a question of one person, which forces them into a splinter conversation, and then there are two conversations happening at once around one small table.
BUT:
A - Fuck anyone who thinks badly of him for this. Accept him as he comes or do one.
B - He's really warm - way warmer than me - so people enjoy spending time with him regardless.

I would maybe just chat about how he isn't really that laddish in his behaviour and that the more laddish blokes are maybe a bit less mature than him or a bit less likely to get that sort of joke. Point out that your friends' husbands 'get' him.

My DS2 who is autistic, was exactly like this when he was trying to make friends. He tried to get in with the mainstream crowd and they just thought he was weird. Left him out, mocked him, dropped him, bullied him, even. meanwhile the IT Crowd style geeks were very friendly and keen on him. After a lot of upset and him really strenuously saying he had nothing in common with the geeky ones, he started hanging out with them because he felt so lonely. Two years later they are best mates, go on holiday together, study together, celebrate each other's birthdays etc and once he got past their social awkwardness and his own, he discovered they share a sense of humour, they are emotionally intelligent etc - way nicer as friends than the cool laddish ones.

Maybe invite your friends and their husbands over for BBQs and meet ups and then start recalling funny or lovely incidents from those times so DH associates those men with having fun over the years. He'll get to realise they are his type if he spends enough time with them.

When you try to explain to him that people are being mean, or that he is doing something that is odd, are you very direct about it? Or do you kind of beat around the bush because you don't want to sound critical? I'm not sure it's doing him any favours to not be honest with him about all this.

I also agree this problem will get worse, at some point he may find it impossible to get work at all and you may find that you yourself are being excluded from friends too. It's so important to have a solid job and good support network as you get older so this would worry me a lot.

Would relationship counselling be an option?

My DF was like this.

One time when he was visiting I had to explain to him that it was not on to make jokes about women's weight to the women themselves. I think that he might have thought it ok because the women made jokes about their own weight.

I don't think there is much you can do. But I am pleased to hear you are a loving couple - DM did eventually leave, she wasn't happy in the marriage, though DF was oblivious to that.

He is who he is. And yes, men like this get worse as they get older, and it gets more awkward. But...you chose him, you chose to marry him, he has friends (even if somewhat problematic) and I guess if he enjoys the company of the loud obnoxious ones and is bored by the ones you consider "suitable", would he really enjoy himself more with the suitable ones?

Personality is very difficult to change. He could learn to be fully aware how awkward he is, but would that suddenly give him better social skills? Or just make him sad and isolated? Personally if you love him I would keep some friendships separate from him, let him have the obnoxious friends (who might have guffawed drunkenly at his £4.30 joke) and learn to shrug it off.