Challenging behaviour, so worried!

[Magenta1234]

I could really do with talking to someone and getting some advice/perspective atm. I’ve had awful day and feel helpless. I’m so worried about my DD’s (5 yr old) escalating extreme behaviour at the moment and the impact it’s having on the household. I feel so sad that I’m isolating myself from everyone, particularly other parents because I feel so sad seeing and hearing all the lovely things they are doing when we are struggling to complete the most basic task.

There is something going on and I’m wondering if it could be autism/adhd/odd or something else? Her behaviours have escalated so much I need to get her help. I’ve spoken to the school but they don’t see any of the behaviours in school, which makes me feel absolutely awful because I feel like I’m doing Something wrong at home.

Some of the behaviours include-—

— frequent daily meltdowns over anything and everything. Hitting, scratching faces, spitting, toppling dining chairs and ornaments etc.

• sometimes has full blown rage tantrums over smallest things resulting in her, breaking things, hitting, spitting in faces, scratching herself. I really feel she is out of control in these situations.
• destructive with everything, breaks toys, breaks plants, draws on furniture etc.
• can’t turn my back for two minutes or shes up to something, pouring bubble Bath all over floor, putting toothpaste/cosmetics in soap etc. Constantly mixing anything she can get her hands on.
• issues getting dressed everyday, will only wear certain clothes. Then we have issues with them being too long/short/baggy/tight and same with socks. Resulting in meltdowns over the smallest issue.
• sometimes wont take old clothes off and goes to bed with clothes she wore all day. Have to spend next morning trying to get them off her- resulting in meltdown.
• is really busy at home, jumping over sofa, doing flips over back of sofa, climbing.
• If I tell her not to do something she will definitely do it.
• has used scissors to cut socks because ‘didn’t feel right’.
• meltdowns after school over the most basic thing.
• wont listen, struggle to brush teeth, wash hands, eat at dinner table
• behaviour has escalated over past two months and becoming more dangerous. Will pick anything up and throw it at your face, mugs, toys etc. scrams herself when in a rage, run out of house, pick up hot tea to throw, run onto road in meltdown.
• doesn’t like anyone leaving the house, runs out of front door if unlocked and will try to chase after car.
• cries going to school each day, has bad belly etc hides, won’t leave house.
• shopping is horrendous, jumps and hangs from trolly, swinging upside down.
• refuses to go to parties, last time she sat on my lap and refused to mix with anyone. If any parent spoke to her she’d hide her face.
• gets anxious going to ballet, will refuse if any changes like new pupil, unknown adult in room etc.
• if i do something she doesn’t like will act irrationally. For example, if she’s having a photo and I move her hair out of her eyes she will completely mess her hair and put it over her face or if I wash her hands she’ll go and draw over them because she didn’t want them washed.
• sometimes when in particular mood will name inanimate objects or won’t let you put rubbish in bin as she’s named them.

This is the thing though, no behaviour issues in school at all and is intelligent. She is anxious and has trouble making friends but behaviour is ok. The school are trying to help with reward system linked to home but her behaviour has got worse as a result. They said it’s unlikely to be asd/adhd as she’s unlikely to be able to mask such extreme behaviour. GP doesn’t want to know because it has to go through the school . I know there is definitely something going on for her but not sure where to turn and feel so sad for her.

we can have good days but we really have to work hard, by distracting, de escalating but it can be so exhausting all the time.

Any advice greatly appreciated. Thanks I’m advance x

It depends on your area, but I don't get that you can't refer her for ASD assessment except through the school, since it has to ve diagnosed by a Dr or clinical psychologist. Ask the school SENCO to make a referral if that's the process. Otherwise, the SENCO will know how to refer. Also look for the SEND local offer on your council's website- it will say what services are available.

I hope you and DD get the help you need.

Am sure more knowledgeable mumsnetters will be along shortly with advice OP (and it might be worth getting this moved to the behaviour or SEN section) but my feeling would be to go back to the GP and ask for an urgent referral to Community Paediatrics. See if you can get yourself on a cancellation list if possible. Document everything as you are doing. I would also take issue with the school’s stance that she would be unable to mask such extreme behaviour - girls can and do mask to a significant extent so that line of thinking must be challenged.

Finally OP I hope you are getting lots of support yourself, because the worry and isolation and sheer daily grind of dealing with this behaviour must be awful. Hang in there.

As an aside, I follow a lady on instagram called Tara Leniston who has a son with autism and another with adhd. Her page is full of useful advice for challenging behaviours in general, and she totally gets the emotional side of it for parents. I believe she also does mentoring / support for parents navigating the diagnostic process. Worth checking out as she has a hugely calming vibe and holistic approach.

I read each bullet point and the weight in my stomach got heavier with each. DD has been just like this. I've been reporting to school since 2017 and she's now 11 and starting secondary in September. The worst part of it is screaming blue murder meltdowns since she was about six, it's now escalated to doing this in public. School refused to help at every turn because she never does any of this in school, only at home. GP turned us away too, multiple times. I hope you get better help than we have. I’m a lone parent and most days it's unbearable.

My DD displayed similar behaviours and she was later diagnosed with autism.

Could you talk us through a typical meltdown ie what you and she said and did?

Autism often presents like this. Look up PDA, as well as autism in girls. Yes she absolutely can mask in school. Yes you need a referral. School are not necessarily the experts here. Best of luck. Try to remove as much demand as you can at home and think about the meltdowns as panic attacks. It's "can't" not won't/choosing not to. However it feels for you, it feels worse for her.

You have described my daughter aged 3 to 8. I was covered in scratches and we stopped taking her anywhere. Lockdown was just tantrums. She’s now 10 and completely out of it. I can’t believe how calm she is and I was convinced she had ADHD. Even her school suggested autism. No mention of it now from anyone. My god though, it was hard at times so I really feel for you.

I have no experience of this but my friend’s DD(8) was just like you describe from age 4. The nursery and then school said they see no behaviour concerns but eventually her behaviour began to show a little at school (still masks but they see snapshots) who then finally took notice. Her DD has been referred for ADHD assessment and friend now thinks she could have autism too. From what I understand you will need to be firm and keep pushing for help and not take no for an answer. Hopefully someone will be along shortly with some good advice.

They said it’s unlikely to be asd/adhd as she’s unlikely to be able to mask such extreme behaviour.

This is complete nonsense, and one of the reasons girls are often diagnosed so late.

I'm not saying your dd is neurodiverse, but it cannot be discounted as a possibility simply because her teachers do not see it.

GP doesn’t want to know because it has to go through the school

Again, nonsense. You are having a problem with your dd's behaviour at home. It is affecting your well-being as well as hers. The GP can definitely refer you to services that may not assess your dd immediately (eg parenting classes) but can get you into the system and build up evidence for further referrals. It is, unfortunately, very VERY slow.

Look up autism services in your area. Might be called something like 'CountyName Autism'. They could probably give you advice on how to access support.

Have look at communication strategies and behaviour strategies for ND children. "Have a wee and get your shoes on, we're off now." Seems clear enough? Yet such an instruction can be extremely confusing for a child who is ND or dysregulated. Too many instructions, a mix of instructions and statements, an unpredicted sudden change - it can all lead to the child exploding.

One last note. You are not a failure. If your dd is ND, what you are seeing is her decompressing in a safe place after holding it in all day.

I recommend reading ‘The Explosive Child’ by Dr Ross Greene.

@MissMythic Thank you, I actually bought this last week but haven’t had chance to have a good read yet x

I'm a teacher and have been a Senco. It absolutely sounds like you need a referral to a paediatrician. I would also agree that children do mask at school. What is really hard though is that as she doesn't show this behaviour at school it will be difficult for the school to have enough evidence to write on the forms to support the referral. If she were to be seen by a paediatrician we also receive various forms to fill in, and again they won't show the behaviours you see.

Something the school can refer for is Early Help or Family support. This is under the umbrella of social services but the team are not social workers. In my experience they are excellent. They can offer help in the home with routines and routines which may help but can also support with further referrals and so on. You can also self refer for this. The support generally comes through quite quickly. I'd really recommend this service.

Oh wow, I could have written this post myself! So you're not alone. My ds is exactly the same and similar age. Watching this thread with interest.

My ds masks hugely at school, too.

@pinkginfizz9 an example from last night, she went in the bath, was being difficult and trying to squirt the whole bottle of bubbles in the bath. I tried to take them off her, she was purposely splashing the water out everywhere. she decided she wanted to get out of the bath straight away without washing, I said ‘let’s wash you quickly then’ I put soap on her and she started to scream, jumping out of the bath with soap all over her. Hitting me, , hitting and banging glass door of shower, slamming toilet seat down, swiping anything off units, I picked her up because I thought she may hurt herself or break something and tried to calm her by saying it’s ok, she started to hit me in the face, scramming my face, biting my top, pinching, anything to hurt when I tried to stop her hitting she started spitting in my face. I put her down and she ran out of the room trying to break anything in her track, at this point she was screaming and crying, started to roll on floor, kicking. Her dad came upstairs to see what was happening and this caused her to get more upset and angry because someone else was witnessing it, so he left and had to leave me try to calm her. Eventually she let me hold her and I told her everything was ok, she was sobbing and saying ‘it isn’t ok’ , I wish it didn’t happen’, I hugged and held her when she calmed down. this was a particularly bad meltdown.
sometimes she’ll get angry because a drawing isn’t going right and you can see it escalating, she’ll start to rip or scrumple up the paper and keep trying until she eventually erupts and will kick, doors, throw anything in reach, scream and crying whilst rolling on the floor. In this instance I try to get in there before it escalates and distract with something else but it doesn’t always work. I also try to tell her it’s not ok to hit and break things, but I have to wait until she has calmed down before telling her or it will escalate further.

The school have told me I need to be firmer and take things off her when she behaves this way.

I am so surprised GPs won't put your children forwards for ASD/ ADHD assessment. In my area they are happy to take the parents word that they would like their child to be assessed and that is really helpful. ASD and ADHD in girls especially is often masked at school and it's only when people feel relaxed with people they know love them that they act out on the stresses of the day. Shows how secure your child feels at home so kudos to you. 💐I would try the GP again. Maybe take a list of behaviours to back up what you are telling them.

@ Plainfield1983 This is the main reason I’d like her assessed as school want me to be firmer with her and give her consequences for her behaviour but if she can’t help it surly this will escalate the behaviour?

Yes exactly. School are wrong. Consequences won't work if it's anxiety-driven behaviour. Happy for you to pm me. Your description sounds very familiar.

@blackrabbitwhiterabbit it makes such a difference knowing we’re not on our own 💐 What’s his behaviour like in school? Are school supportive?

Also. Remember that you are the expert on your child, not school. Your gut instinct is better than any advice they can give you. Speaking from experience as a parent. And I'm a teacher who has specialised a bit in SEN btw!

How is she behaving during school holidays?

Do you have other children?

@StarsandStones she is the same really, without the anxiety of having to go to school and meltdowns over getting dressed. We had a really difficult Easter holidays and that’s when I spoke to school.

ive got two teenagers as well, she’s not nice to them at all and hits out at them. They are great with her and not had any issues like this with them. The middle ones gets it worse because she will argue back with her and situation escalates quickly.

I second asking for a referral to Early Help - we were referred by school and I was not happy about it. I had wanted a referral for ADHD/ASD assessment not what I saw as an assault on my parenting. However, it ended up being really helpful and we got a referral for assessment that way as the early help support worker witnessed the behaviours and agreed they were not neurotypical.

@Magenta1234 you poor thing, and your poor daughter.

The school are 100% wrong to say that she couldn’t mask this behaviour- her meltdowns are so extreme BECAUSE the effort of masking is so massive.

Can you afford to go privately for assessment? We circumvented the school and our son was diagnosed with asd with pda, severe adhd and dyslexia. So much of what you have written sounds like him.

If she does have these conditions (especially PDA) then the school setting up reward programs is the opposite of what she needs- it will increase her anxiety and make her behaviour much worse.

Sounds really hard, especially with school sounding so useless.

School are wrong saying they wouldn't be able to mask so much at school - I think particularly girls mask a lot, which is why they can't control in at home as it's the only place they can let go. I teach two girls with ODD - they are fine at school, calm, polite, sometimes need to go to their own quiet space, but rarely have behavioural problems. You would never guess they had extreme behavioural problems at home, one even tries to crash the car on the way to school but is fine once there!

I would start recording the meltdowns, and keep a diary of their frequency, cause and what your consequence was. Document injuries caused to family and herself. Keep pushing school and GP, show them the evidence. Ask to talk to the safeguarding lead at school and tell them you are worried about keeping her safe.

Good luck