Cracking up with 5 yo DDs sleep (or lack thereof)

[Endlessdark]

DD has always been a rubbish sleeper, stopped napping shortly after 1 and in general has bundles of energy. I have a 1yo dd also and they share a room.

have had some concerns about her RE ASD, however haven’t managed to successfully get her assessed despite going down 3 different avenues. First I contacted school who said they can’t help as she masks as school but gave me the name of the local authority to contact and said also go through GP. Tried local authority who said no they don’t take direct requests, went through GP who said wait 3 months and if no improvement they will send referral. Waited the three months with things getting worse, had an appointment with the GP who sent off referral in May. Received a letter last week saying the referral was rejected because not enough info was supplied and told me to go through the school. So yep, round and round in circles. DH not fully supportive of an assessment as he thinks she’s just a quirky kid, however doesn’t get the brunt of her behaviour at all and he travels for work a lot. Despite this I contacted a private paed who specialises in ASD for an assessment, just need to find the funds for that.

basically dd will not sleep at night. It takes hours of fighting before she will go down. She’s often awake in the middle of the night anywhere between 20 minutes to 2-3 hours. Wakes up early too. I keep her very active, playground every day after school as well as playing at home. She eats a select few foods but a lot of them if that makes sense so she isn’t hungry! I’m on my fucking knees, this week has been awful. She wakes her sister up multiple times a night, I’m getting barely any sleep. I lost it tonight and demanded DH come home because I can’t cope with the 4 hours of endless fighting. I get zero time alone, house is a shithole all the time because as soon as I clean she is wrecking again. please has anyone got any advice??? As I wrote this she has gotten out of bed again. I can barely keep my eyes open I’m so tired.

I’m so glad the melatonin worked OP! It’s such a gamechanger with sleep issues. I know two people who have taken it with amazing results.

Your husband….he’s being (to put it mildly) a dick.

@Endlessdark great it worked - and she slept through the night? Is it slow release spray?

don’t like that your DH has that attitude. Sorry to hear that, it’s hard enough without that.

I've only just seen your thread and I've read all of your posts but not all of the other posters' so apologies if I'm repeating anyone...

I just wanted to pick up on your worries about the amount of sleep that she's having, that 10pm is too late for her for example. The AVERAGE amount of sleep for a five year old is 10-13hrs, with as little as 8-9hrs still quite common so if she is sleeping, say, 10pm-6am then she's at the bottom end of sleep needs but by no means unusual. (For a six year old these figures drop to 9-11hrs in average with as little as 7-8hrs still quite common.)

I mention this because the split nights (being awake for several hours in the middle of the light) can, somewhat counterintuitively, be a symptom of "too much" sleep. This idea that all children can/do/should sleep through 7pm-7am is not based in any biological reality (it's probably a side effect of the socioeconomic requirement for both parents to work full time). I wonder what would happen if you aimed for 8hrs of sleep for her?

I do recognise that this is very difficult as you're parenting alone (even when your husband is there, by the sounds of things). He needs a short, sharp shock, has he ever looked after them by himself for any length of time? Can you outsource anything to make your life easier, au pair, cleaner, mother's help, laundry service etc.?

Sleep needs from this graphic

Thank you for the useful info @ClementWeatherToday! My DTS1 is the horrendous sleeper I mentioned upthread - he's always needed less sleep than DTS2 (who is horrid on anything less than 11 hours!) but even he is struggling when he doesn't get to sleep till 10pm and then is up at 7.30am for school.

@Endlessdark my DP is just selfish really - he will swear blind that he'll help with bedtime, then spend hours watching pointless videos on Facebook. When he finally comes upstairs he'll decide that NOW is the time to spend quality time with the DC (despite having seen them all day!) and oh, isn't it lovely if he can chat to them for ages?! No, it bloody isn't as it turns them into wailing zombies in the morning, but that's not his problem as he's already gone to work by then

Very pleased to hear that melatonin spray worked though!!

I’m really pleased and melatonin has worked OP and just as sorry your DH is being a dick!! Hopefully the melatonin will carry on working for you. They do need a break from it as I said upthread, either weekends or school holiday’s depending how you want to do it. Also if she starts waking in the night with it, I’d get some slow release tablets and try them instead, hopefully you won’t need to.

@User17865 thanks so much for the advice! I think I’m going to monitor it and have her off it on weekend days as it doesn’t matter as much when there’s no school! It worked again last night, I really didn’t think it was going to because she was very restless and refusing to go to sleep, but was asleep within 30 minutes. I mean the sheer luxury of not having to spend hours every evening it unreal. I even managed to do some sewing and had the energy to go to the gym as 6am this morning!!! I’m hoping now my cortisol levels will decrease and I can finally shift some of this baby weight 😆

@MissSusanPevensie i really do feel your pain. My DH is equally as useless. Wants to be the fun Disney dad all the time but spends most of his time on his phone/computer. I realised the other day when he said Bluey made him feel like a bad parent because it was an unrealistic representation of how parents play with their children. I was gobsmacked, I was like “..actually this is how most parents play. They don’t just stick them in front of an iPad/TV!” I mean obviously my hotel skills aren’t on the same level as bluey but we do get very involved in our role playing games 😆 Sometimes I think it would be easier to be alone, I mean he’s away so much anyway (physically and mentally!) Sending you positive vibes for the new week and hoping DC go easy on you.

@ClementWeatherToday thanks so much for the info, that is really useful to know. I think it’s so hard not to compare to others and wonder why my dd doesn’t act the same way. It could be just that she does need less sleep, I have noticed a positive improvement on both our behaviours since she’s started sleeping better though. Unfortunately I don’t have anyone around to help and DD can’t be away from me without becoming very emotionally distraught.

it’s funny, I see so much of myself in DD and it breaks my heart because I imagine my own struggles in her.

We had exactly the same with our DD, who is now dx ADHD and ASC. Three hours every night, sitting in her room/on the stairs, till she fell asleep 10-11.
I was lucky, I called the GP last Feb to ask for help/advice whilst we were waiting for her consultant appointment and they prescribed the melatonin! You would have to drag it from my cold dead hands... utter game changer, she now settles easily and sleeps through.

She's been on the same low dose for 18 months, no side effects, no need to increase the dose.

Our DD is quite badly affected, she can't mask at school and- hoping the EHCP is granted- we're looking at specialist provision.

Definitely keep up with the melatonin, get it by fair means or foul!

THose of you who use melatonin for DCs, have you not have issues with DCs waking in the night? For us when we tried DD just woke up 4 or 5 hours later and wouldn't settle. I'm wondering if we need to up the dose, or try giving it to her during the night.

The doctor did say to us that they didn't expect it to be the answer for us given it helps to get to sleep not the night wakes.

Hi all, reactivating my thread in the hope of getting some advice. Have been really struggling with DDs behaviour recently, she’s like an endless ball of energy. The melatonin is still really helping, she’s asleep in about an hour (often more like half an hour!) but still wakes frequently through the night. We’ve been referred to a paediatrician for her sleep and we will be seen in September so fingers crossed they will be able to help. Do you think I should be open and honest about the melatonin spray with them or not? Not sure how they will feel about us giving it as it’s not available over here over the counter.

my main problem now is the last two nights DD has wet the bed. She’s been dry at night since she was two so it’s over 3 years now and suddenly it happened on Sunday night and then twice last night. Any ideas why this could be? Is it likely to be the melatonin even on such a small dose? She was checked for a uti a week and a half ago which was clear and has no other symptoms. I’m really concerned and have been reading all sorts of scary things online. She says she’s not worried about anything but could be the anticipated for year 1? She is still waking up at night to pee as well, no idea where she’s getting all the liquid from although she does eat about 8 bowls of cereal a day!

I'd make sure she hasn't got a UTI

Hi @Endlessdark - could the melatonin be putting your DD into such a deep sleep that she just doesn't always feel the cues she would usually need to get up if she needs the toilet? DTS1 (my terrible sleeper!) is usually dry at night, whereas DTS2 is still in pull ups at almost 8, I think he just sleeps so deeply that needing a wee wouldn't wake him up.

Alternatively if there's no medical reason, could it just be the change in routine due to the school holidays?

So GP couldn’t fit her in today but she’s honestly peed like over 15 times today. I ended up going to the pharmacy and buying the urinalysis test strips myself and tested her myself, it was all clear. I was so sure that was it. I do find that she obsesses over when she can next have a wee so maybe it’s more of a compulsion? I have no idea. Anyway, fresh sheets on and no melatonin tonight, we will see where we get to. I feel so deflated, back to the 4 hour bedtimes 😞

following with interest

My DNA sleep is appalling she is 5 she can just keep going and going

going on holiday went from 6.30 in the morning until 1.50 am !!!
She just never seems to need much sleep and is often up and down half the night for one reason or another
still wets the bed at times aswell

I didn’t tell the Paediatrician that I’d been giving my DC melatonin as I wasn’t sure how they’d react. I just told them what sleep is like without it. My DC was waking up really early with the OTC melatonin so I stopped it. Then the prescription melatonin is slow release and that works to keep him asleep all night although he still wakes early but not 3/4am.
In the past when we’ve had symptoms of a UTI and a clear test the GP has said probably anxiety. Constipation can also affect bladder symptoms so that’s something else to consider.
When things were really bad I just let him stay up with me until I went to bed. I felt it was the lesser of 2 evils. There are charities that run sleep work shops you might be able to access. Contact MENCAP and see if they offer any in your area or can sign post you.

My DC needed the slow release version to stay asleep.