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Graduating American High School

64 replies

LotsOfBalloons · 01/06/2023 21:21

I've gone down a bit or a rabbit hole and it seems most people graduate high school?

Does this mean high school is easy enough that say 98% of people can graduate if they turn up and do the work (ie it's aimed at lowest common denominator?)

Can kids with additional needs pass/graduate high school?

I really like the idea of something everyone can pass. Given our system by design fails about half the population.

OP posts:
x2boys · 02/06/2023 17:02

LotsOfBalloons · 01/06/2023 22:22

Mathanxiety that all sounds very sensible!

I hate that we try and push people through gcses here in England when it's not suitable for so many. I love the more individualised learning it sounds like you have with different tracks. And something people can genuinely achieve, with the options ti exceed for those who want to (I was super academic, I'd have loved all the classes and the chances to do more!)

Post GCSE ,though there are plenty of courses suited to less academic students in the UK too.

user1477391263 · 03/06/2023 01:23

SeaToSki · 02/06/2023 16:38

Also grading based on everything is like death by a thousand cuts - there is no space to learn the skills and information as everything gets graded, so you have to be "perfect" instantly. At least with A levels and GCSEs you have the terms to hone your knowledge and skills before the exams

Exactly. I’ve briefly experienced this kind of schooling and hated it.

So much pressure to understand everything straight way, and then if you couldn’t and had any issues with new material, there is this grim doomy feeling of knowing that a lot of your final mark has already been determined and you’ve already lost the opportunity to retrieve yourself by doing well at the end.

People cheated CONSTANTLY.

And people would cram what they needed for this current unit, then forget about it and never think about it again (whereas with GCSE stuff, revision is built into the structure of it because you need to go back and massively review stuff towards the end, which we now know is far better for long term memory - you are more likely to remember stuff long term if you learn it once, half forget it,then go back to it).

Americans certainly don’t seem to remember much of all this supposedly well-rounded education they all get - surveys show that in general, general knowledge levels in the States are quite poor.

onlylarkin · 03/06/2023 02:53

Thought I would post what happens in my state.

Yes kids need to have a certain GPA to graduate. But here they also are required to either take the SAT or complete a capstone along with the GPA. They can not graduate without it.

Our state has, within the last few years only, given students an option of 3 choices: a college track (honors and AP classes), a vocational track, with a new school for careers in the automotive industry, health care, etc. Third is a military route for those who plan to go into the military.

Kids have to somewhat chose in 8th grade (age 13/14) which path they want to take. It is not rigid though. Once a student chooses a path, it is hard to change the trajectory, but not impossible.

A large portion of the kids, IMO, end up somewhere in the middle. My oldest was not pushed for a college path because of her ADHD. She did not chose a vocational path either. Now she is in a public state college getting a dual major degree with a minor. I expect her to get a graduate degree.

My youngest, who should be in honors and AP classes, chose a vocational route. She will spend her last 2 years of HS working towards her professional licensure. She still completes all the same requirements that all other students must. In fact, she has to do 2 classes in summer school this year in order to fulfill the required classes while going to both high school classes and trade school classes this year. She actually will not be able to hold down a part time job during the school year because she literally has 10 hour days 5 days a week to get both done.

(Before someone asks, we ask our kids to try and work 1 day a week so they have spending money for things like concerts. We provide all necessities but want them to learn financial literacy in a safe space where spent money doesn't mean they cant pay rent or eat.)

On the other hand, she will walk in a College Graduation BEFORE her High School graduation.

I almost forgot about concurrent enrollment. All high schools in my state offer concurrent enrollment classes for students to take college classes while still in HS. My oldest graduated high school with a full semester of college credits. Her final High School math credit was a college algebra class that she earned college credit for.

Sorry for rambling on. Each state is different overall, this is how my state does things.

Interested in this thread?

Then you might like threads about these subjects:

SofiaAmes · 03/06/2023 05:57

Yes to concurrent enrollment!!!!! My dd graduated high school with 2 years worth of college/university credits. The community college classes were much more suited to her learning style and because they were online, she could do them at her speed (she has dyslexia and dyscalculia) and no one humiliated her for not working quickly enough.

mathanxiety · 07/06/2023 01:36

My local community college validated all AP coursework in the local HS, so my DCs had credits too. Some universities don't accept credits from anywhere except four year colleges though.

HamBone · 07/06/2023 02:12

@Anoooshka Does your DS’s school offer AP classes? My DD has just graduated and said recently that she enjoys Calculus. I don’t feel quite the same way about it. 😂 AP Physics is also challenging and your DS might relish it.

mathanxiety · 07/06/2023 03:08

SeaToSki

Also grading based on everything is like death by a thousand cuts - there is no space to learn the skills and information as everything gets graded, so you have to be "perfect" instantly. At least with A levels and GCSEs you have the terms to hone your knowledge and skills before the exams
I honestly never saw that pressure to be perfect right from the getgo in any of the classes my DCs were in; I don't agree with your assertion that knowledge and skills couldn't be honed before you galloped on to the next module. Students' initial work was graded as beginners' efforts, and later work was expected to be better, to show evidence of acquisition of the skills that were taught.

user1477391263
So much pressure to understand everything straight way, and then if you couldn’t and had any issues with new material, there is this grim doomy feeling of knowing that a lot of your final mark has already been determined and you’ve already lost the opportunity to retrieve yourself by doing well at the end.
In most high schools that I'm aware of, you can move to another class within a few weeks of the start of any given semester. This means that if you get that awful feeling that the class is moving too fast and you don't stand a chance of coming to grips with the material, you can choose another class, move down from AP to honours, from honours to college prep, or sideways to another class whose theme or material suits you better.

In my own observation, teachers issued notification of the grade a student needed in the final semester exam in order to achieve a certain grade in the class. They also gave opportunities to get extra credit during the course of the semester. This kept students engaged and also ensured that students came to grips with the material. In addition, teachers were always available to students and parents - they could be contacted by email and always responded promptly, so if any issues arose they could be dealt with.

I grew up in a final exam oriented system - I didn't see the advantage of final exams on which your entire future depended that were held at peak hay fever season, and always thought it unfair that students with conditions like anxiety were in effect penalised, or if you guessed wrong and spent your last week of swotting studying the wrong poem or novel or mathematics or geography topic, or period in history, you would end up in a course/city well below your top choice.

People cheated CONSTANTLY.
If you only briefly experienced American schooling then that's a broad statement that should be qualified by the disclaimer "in my brief experience". Teachers these days have access to software that detects plagiarism.

And people would cram what they needed for this current unit, then forget about it and never think about it again (whereas with GCSE stuff, revision is built into the structure of it because you need to go back and massively review stuff towards the end, which we now know is far better for long term memory - you are more likely to remember stuff long term if you learn it once, half forget it,then go back to it).
The object of education is not really to teach a set of facts for regurgitation at the end of the course of studies - it's more an attempt to encourage critical thinking, and to teach skills such as research, writing, and logic. Perhaps this is why so much of the innovation we've seen in the world for the last fifty years has originated in the US or been developed in the US.

Americans certainly don’t seem to remember much of all this supposedly well-rounded education they all get - surveys show that in general, general knowledge levels in the States are quite poor.
General knowledge isn't the same thing at all as a 'well rounded' education. The broad education is supposed to allow you to make connections between various academic disciplines.
Remind me again how many subjects the average British student studies for their GCSE? Yet many have difficulty pointing out Sheffield on a map.

mathanxiety · 07/06/2023 03:15

user1477391263 · 02/06/2023 11:20
Grading based on coursework is highly subject to teacher bias, increases teacher workload, and can very easily end up being partly or largely done by parents, tutors, TAs or AI. It really isn’t a feasible solution.

Not so, because US students take frequent national standardised tests that will reveal any lack of work. Standardised tests are also an effective means of quality control/ detecting teacher bias.

Also, AP exams are graded by external examiners.

mathanxiety · 07/06/2023 04:06

Forgetmenott

High school is very easy and heavily based on coursework. No specialisation whatsoever, you study a little bit of everything. Unlike the UK where you specialise in 3 A level subjects.

The description of high school is simply not true. The comparison with the UK is therefore meaningless.

Their university is more like our A levels because they pick three subjects.
Not true at all.
Students choose their major at the end of their second year, but most have some idea what they will major in before then, and many will have taken coursework leading to their major from the start. Some universities require General Education or 'Core' coursework to provide a solid foundation for any chosen major.

Here are Princeton's gen ed requirements:
https://ua.princeton.edu/contents/general-education-requirements

University of Chicago:
All students in UChicago College begin their undergraduate education by taking courses from the Core curriculum, an integrated, interdisciplinary, sequence of courses that are designed to establish the habits of mind and the critical, analytic, and writing skills that are expected of an educated, well-informed member of modern society. The Core serves as an introduction to the tools of inquiry used in every discipline—science, mathematics, humanities, and social sciences. The goal is not just to transfer knowledge but to raise fundamental questions and familiarize students with the powerful ideas that shape our society.
https://college.uchicago.edu/academics

They don’t actually specialise in a single subject until postgraduate level.
Not true - students choose a major (or double major, or major plus minor, or double major plus minor) and enter the workforce at graduate level.

Law, medicine, dentistry, physiotherapy, pharmacy, veterinary medicine, optometry, podiatry, and midwifery are some examples of postgrad professional degrees.

And an American PhD includes taught classes which doesn’t happen in the UK, and takes twice as long because of that.
The US is the leading destination for PhD students partially thanks to the structured nature of PhD courses. There is nothing intrinsically amiss with taking longer to do a PhD, or starting out with taught classes and assessments.
Generally, depending on the area of studies, the first 1-4 years of a doctorate will resemble a taught masters programme. After that, the PhD degree will take 2-4 years. It's not a one size fits all proposition, though in general, PhD students are required to teach as well as research, write, and publish.

General Education Requirements | Undergraduate Announcement 2022-23

https://ua.princeton.edu/contents/general-education-requirements

mathanxiety · 07/06/2023 04:22

@user1477391263

https://www.newtrier.k12.il.us/programofstudies

An example of an academic catalogue from a Chicago area high school, showing minimum state requirements vs. average college entry requirements, and the vast range of courses and levels available to students.

Well, it really depends whether you think the purpose of school requirements is to have some evaluation standards, or whether it is supposed to be a sort of "Well done for trying a little tiny bit!" type thing. The fact that high school graduation in the US doesn't require or expect much means that it isn't taken very seriously by anyone.

The expectations are individualised, and whether you end up happy or otherwise with your end result will depend very much on your own aspirations and the effort you were able to expend in achieving what you set out to do.

https://www.newtrier.k12.il.us/programofstudies

sashh · 07/06/2023 04:51

I used to be on a forum with a lot of Americans.

Each state sets it's own curriculum, one person had to swim a certain distance to get their high school diploma.

I think American high schools are less focused on age than ability so you can be held back or go up a year or do more advanced classes in some subjects.

As I understand it the diploma is like a wrapper, inside are a certain number of credits from compulsory classes and credits for 'electives' which can be chosen from a large range of subjects.

Generally I think HS in the US are much bigger than here and everyone seems to go to their local one.

I think subjects are also spit into 'classes' so maths will be in separate courses for different aspects of the subject and you take a number of courses.

I think things like history are also separate courses.

knitnerd90 · 07/06/2023 05:15

University of Chicago is known for having one of the most intense and detailed core curricula, fwiw.

Also, you don't get to forget each module because 1) the topics come up later and 2) there's still a final exam, which can count for as much as 1/5 of the grade for the class. So far the software is doing pretty well at detecting ChatGPT. Universities in BOTH countries are reeling from the potential impact of AI, anyway.

If I had any gripes: history is really not taken seriously enough and it's too biased towards the US. In some states world history is 2 years, in others only 1--but there's almost no world history at all before 9th grade. Also, foreign language teaching tends to be weak and start too late, but the UK can't be said to be better nowadays. Sciences are taught sequentially rather than together, which I think is awkward as eg. you take biology before chemistry, but you really ought to know the basics of chemistry before hitting biochemistry.

Otherwise, it's all about both where you live and what you make of it.

mathanxiety · 07/06/2023 05:15

High school students don't all start at the same starting point, nor do they continue through their four years in a straight, ascending line. Freshmen can find themselves sitting in class with seniors in many subjects.

You can fail a class one year and repeat it either in summer school or the following year. You can fail Algebra and repeat it while still advancing to the next step in your English/ Latin/ History sequence/track.

HamBone · 08/06/2023 13:37

@mathanxiety Yes, when DD was a Freshman, she was placed with Juniors and Seniors in her strong subjects and in her weak subject, French, she was the oldest student this year. No one in DH’s family does well learning foreign languages, we joke that there’s a missing gene. 😂

It’s such a different system to the UK.

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