Graduating American High School

[LotsOfBalloons]

I've gone down a bit or a rabbit hole and it seems most people graduate high school?

Does this mean high school is easy enough that say 98% of people can graduate if they turn up and do the work (ie it's aimed at lowest common denominator?)

Can kids with additional needs pass/graduate high school?

I really like the idea of something everyone can pass. Given our system by design fails about half the population.

Sounds like it works much better for the average student.

And not competing for grades at the end of the day.

Turn up and do the work - should be enough shouldn't it?

Yes I think it’s a better system in terms of getting people into work. And the whole graduation ceremony is fun and graduating did give some a real sense of pride.
But on the flip side I found it annoying when eg kids that had done zero study so failed a test would be given some sort of bullshit assignment for extra credit instead.
As a hard working and bright kid I wasn’t really challenged at all, including in my AP classes.

Ah yes that wouldn't be so great I can see that. The English system is hard to get an A and requires a lot of revision and work and a lot of exams over a few weeks. It really isn't for everyone.

I teach adults a social science. I have people who have turned up all year, contributed in class, have a real passion for the subject, been really enthusiastic and done the homework.... but they might "fail" my class as they aren't exam orientated and will find it hard to remember the years work and answer exam based questions. They're a model student though. I think they should pass.

High school is very easy and heavily based on coursework. No specialisation whatsoever, you study a little bit of everything. Unlike the UK where you specialise in 3 A level subjects. Their university is more like our A levels because they pick three subjects. They don’t actually specialise in a single subject until postgraduate level. And an American PhD includes taught classes which doesn’t happen in the UK, and takes twice as long because of that.

For the purposes of UK uni entrance (or at least, Manchester uni), a US high school diploma is equivalent to 5 GCSEs at grade 4 (C).

In the UK they're sitting 9 or 10 GCSE exams at age 16. If you had half that workload, and an extra 2 years, and a system of teacher-assessed coursework that could be done in small chunks and repeated as often as it took, then more than 51% would pass, wouldn't they?

Also it 51% getting a grade 5, and a 4 is still a pass.

The us system aims for people to be well-rounded. An educated person will have been exposed to ideas in a variety of areas, even ones that person doesn’t find particularly interesting. It also gives students a chance to discover new areas of interest.

it isn’t perfect, because if it were, the level of political discourse in our society would be higher, but I do believe it is generally a good system.

The more academic and well supported 40% or so of students do things like the ACT, SAT and AP courses in various subjects, and these are considered internationally competitive by universities worldwide.

The high school graduation itself is pretty meaningless for the most part; most states do not have any sort of exit exam that students are required to pass, and when states do still have exit exams I don't think they are considered very demanding by international standards. The Regents Exam is perhaps a partial exception?

That makes sense though. Not graduating because you didn't attend is so different from the 50% who don't "get" passes at GCSEs in the UK despite turning up!

Well, it really depends whether you think the purpose of school requirements is to have some evaluation standards, or whether it is supposed to be a sort of "Well done for trying a little tiny bit!" type thing. The fact that high school graduation in the US doesn't require or expect much means that it isn't taken very seriously by anyone.

To simplify...you need a minimum overall GPA. You usually sit exams or write papers at the end of each semester. Attendance, participation, coursework and homework, independent learning project are also part of your final grade.

Each course you take gives you a 'credit' towards your diploma. You need a minimum amount of credits to pass and apply for college or university plus your SATs or entrance exams depending on the course. There are core courses and elective courses. You need to take a minimum amount of certain core subject courses over the 4 years. (As a pp has listed) these courses are also streamlined....or they were back in my day to suit the students ability. Ie. Advanced, general and basic. Each with a minimum grade to qualify for the course. Ie. Advanced English Lit we needed a minimum of a B+ (75%) to get on the course.

So yes, even those with learning difficulties or sen are able to pass and achieve a diploma.

Once we hit the age of majority or could apply for emancipation (between 16 -18 depending) you could drop out of high school.

Oh and if you failed a subject/course you could do or would have to do 2 -4 wks in summer school and they also offered exam resits if a fail was given

My DS is at an American high school. He came back from school yesterday and told me that he'd got 104% in his end of year maths exam! He's at a well-regarded school and is not challenged at all. The lowest mark that the kids can get on a test is 50%, even if they don't answer any of the questions. Anything less than 80% and they can retake the test. And most of his exams are multiple choice, including English.

The system is designed to pass kids, but the kids at the top are not challenged. In fact, DS seems to be a bit demotivated as he can get a top grade with very little work.

"The Smartest Kids in the World" (Amanda Ripley) talked about the US system and was pretty scathing about the lack of challenge, lack of exit exams and endless permission for retakes etc.

That was back in 2013 or so, but since then the US has trended even further in the direction of removing requirements/standards and letting kids retake things a million times, and most states have now removed any final examination requirements in order to graduate.

Covid has probably made things worse. Teacher unions in Democratic cities pushed for school closures of astonishing length (in these areas, schools were often shut for 18 months or longer) and there has been huge learning loss, but since talking openly about this would raise questions of responsibility, the tendency is to play down the learning loss and avoid talking about it too much. There was a big push for "closing the attainment gap" in the early 2000s (I remember it well), but the progress made in this respect was basically reversed as a result of the school closures, and it seems that a lot of schools in the US increasingly see their role as being more about politics/therapy than about academic excellence, especially in areas where education attainment is very low anyway.

The kids in the "good" suburban high schools doing AP courses and the SAT etc. are still being challenged appropriately (for the moment), but the high school diploma itself is pretty meaningless (Congratulations! You turned up for school and had a pulse for six years!) so huge numbers of kids are being turned out with a very low level of maths and other basic skills.

My youngest just graduated and was Valedictorian (3 way tie).
Here the kids are offered college classes free of charge,that goes towards their college hours.(Only if they pass the final)

If kids don't have ALL of their high school requirements, they don't graduate.
Simple as that.
Children w special needs and requirements can "graduate".
But most parents here are fully involve full time w their education.

Our youngest had a severe speech delay bc of a chronic illness dx age 3.
The support and encouragement was phenomenal.

My child obviously benefited from the incredible programs,and thankful isn't a strong enough word.

Parents:ADVOCATE
Because it's our job!

So many studies...
But some are sadly accurate.

But thankfully our small town actually values the dedication etc of the kids that truly work hard and deserve the grades that they have worked hard for.

Exit exams aren't as meaningful as all that though. It's just biased towards those who are good at tests. Continuous assessment is fairer, in my opinion. The problem is that since there's no external exams (except in AP or IB courses) it's all subjective and down to the teacher.

The bar for a diploma isn't terribly high but everyone in the US knows that (and I would say same in Canada which has a similar system). It's not meant to be the equivalent of A-Levels or the Bac. It's more of a bare minimum.

A-Levels are not the equivalent of an American BA. A-Levels are the equivalent of first year. The American system actually derives from the Scottish system where you don't specialise first year. The level of specialty is a bit lower in an American BA/BSc though it does vary somewhat depending on subject and student choice, and the trade-off is breadth. (An engineering degree is a different kettle of fish. Under one common system for calculating credits, a BA or BSc would take 120 credits. Anywhere from 40 credits on up would be required for the major, though this might not count other required courses, like taking maths for a physics degree. In engineering, it's 128 credits, and over 90 are in your major. They're much more focused.)

Yes, you take taught classes as part of your PhD, but that's not necessarily a bad thing, and it winds up being the same as people who do a taught master's programme (which can be a good idea for some people or subjects!) The real reason American PhDs take so much longer is that the students are free teaching and research labour. A PhD in the USA (which may include passing a master's exam also and getting that as part of the degree) is meant to take 4 years.

My oldest is about to graduate American high school. I think some subjects could have been in more depth, and some were very much about getting out what you put in. I do think not specialising early is good. I do think American high schools do a better job of catering to a wider variety of students, especially students with disabilities.

This is an interesting watch as an American and a British person describe their experiences.

It’s not necessarily a bad thing to study wider than deeper. At the end both US and UK still need to be trained on the job when they start working. The UK specialized degree doesn’t mean they are better prepared or hit the ground running without a steps learning curve when they start working and I’ve hired and managed graduates in both countries.

Claiming a US degree is the same as UK A levels is just silly, A levels is equivalent to the first year of a US degree not all 4 years.

US students start as generalist and then specialize later and this has pros and cons, there are students who will thrive better in the US system same as students who will thrive in the Uk system, the UK system is not better because they’d specialize from A levels. And if you already know what you want to do you can seedy your courses in a way that specializes you from the start, the US system gives flexibility while in the Uk system you’re committed from early on and have to stick to the path.

There are many options and accommodations for children with special needs in the USA. This varies quite a bit from State to State. Although the laws regarding special education are Federal, they are implemented differently in each State and it can even vary quite a bit from one School District to another (sort of like the variation you might get from one LA to another in the UK). My dc's both have special needs (both medical and educational). They were both accommodated (after some vehement advocacy by me in some cases, reminding the school about the Special Ed laws). Albeit many years ago, I attended "high school" both in the USA and UK and found them equally unchallenging, but I am a good student with excellent Executive Functioning skills and no significant special needs. Both my dc's excelled in their Los Angeles public/state high school because of their accommodations and DD is now about to graduate early from an excellent University. However probably neither would have made it to A-levels in the UK because they don't function well in that type of educational environment.

I think it summary, I have found the American educational system to be far more flexible and accommodating of different learning styles and needs than the UK (or other European systems).

It's not even as simple as US vs. UK, so many posters forget the Scottish system is different to the English. And as I said that's what the North American structure is based on.

i should have said that "they don't specialise in a single subject until postgraduate level" is an oversimplification. Again it depends on subject and person. The American system gives you flexibility. Some universities have a large required core, some do not. A student who has varied interests will love the american system as they can make unusual combinations and aren't fixed so early. A friend's son is interested in mathematics and linguistics and in the USA he can study both. (They may sound unrelated but you can combine them in artificial intelligence or computational linguistics.)

The flexibility at high school level is particularly useful for what are called twice-exceptional students, who are both gifted and have a learning or developmental disability. It's still not easy here but these children often find the more rigid exam based systems difficult and can wind up leaving school with no A-Levels despite being academically talented.

(As I've said there's things I didn't like about high school here, but the general flexibility of the system is definitely something I preferred and it's really benefited my DC with ASD and/or ADHD)

Plenty of my friends & relatives dropped out & attended night school to get their high school GED. The weakness in American system is that kids are nominally stuck there until 18. the ones who aren't academic get bored & fed up & stop going or doing any work. You can definitely be held back for not doing well enough at learning (lots of my relatives were held back 1 year), whereas in English system they very rarely keep pupils back a year.

My niece failed high school because she refused to do the homework. In English system she would have sailed thru ok because she did very well in exams. She never learned to be self-disciplined, either way.

Generally I think English system is much better for giving kids the chance to leave at 16, they only have to hold out that long and they can get genuinely useful qualifications. They have a clear achievable target. However the English system means the students cram a lot & don't learn good constant work habits; there's higher risk they only learn the material long enough to do well on exam & instantly forget the information.

In USA, I imagine the advent of chatGPT will mean a lot less emphasis (grades being dependent) on essays done at home.

American high school sounds more like BTEC. Which is based mostly on coursework and graded by the teacher throughout the year, with a small percentage of the grade assigned to an exam at the end. MUCH easier to achieve highly and it can’t be ruined by getting sick at the wrong time or having a bad day when the exam is due. Less stressful and fairer I think.

Grading based on coursework is highly subject to teacher bias, increases teacher workload, and can very easily end up being partly or largely done by parents, tutors, TAs or AI. It really isn’t a feasible solution.

Also grading based on everything is like death by a thousand cuts - there is no space to learn the skills and information as everything gets graded, so you have to be "perfect" instantly. At least with A levels and GCSEs you have the terms to hone your knowledge and skills before the exams

I went to an American school in the ME and despite coming in with a pretty high equivalent GPA I almost didn't graduate as I didn't have enough PE credits. Had to do extra to make them up. We only did an hour a week in the uk and I needed a lot
More than that.