Where provides the best education for senior school in the world?

[mangomammoth]

Where do you think provides the best education for the senior school years and why do you think they are better than the U.K. system?
My dc is about to finish primary school and I'm pretty disappointed in the English system so I'm daydreaming about better systems!! Feel like they've squished so much information in as dc instead of enjoying these years.

Giving this a lot of thought. Currently paying 25k for senior school and it’s shit. I’d move abroad for a better and well-rounded educational experience.

Thanks @Magnoliainbloom we are paying similar and so so underwhelmed by it all. Looking to see any better systems out there!

So you're looking for a more relaxed, less exam-oriented system? Not necessarily one which teaches the children more? I know of plenty of systems which push children more than the English system.

@User48321 I am a pushy mum so I can't say I'm looking for some bohemian experience but I also feel like the amount of stuff the dc have to learn right now is so daft it's actually prohibitive to a genuine education (so much less learning here there and everywhere & instead it seems to be more, straight from 'the system')

Feel old saying this but when I was at school we basically learnt about so many different things and brought more to the table ourselves from our families and life experiences rather than being taught atuntil much later.

Once gcse/A level years came then it became much more structured and exam focussed and everyone seemed to do well.
Nowadays feels like they start the gcse syllabus in primary and continually go over the layers of the same stuff until year 11.

I agree with you. I hate the emphasis on the exam syllabus, and nothing mattering apart from what's on the syllabus. And you have to learn that in a boring way so that you answer the exam questions in the right way to get points. Speaking from the Scottish perspective, but there are similarities with the English system in the later years of secondary. I'm also fed up with parents being totally focused on exam grades / getting into a good school / getting into a good university. Nothing seems to be about the importance of learning anymore, it's all about collecting brownie points.

I have been impressed by how much the top Italian schools (grammar school equivalent) teach. Teaching not one but two foreign languages to a high level, plus Greek and Latin (I know not everyone will approve of that, but it's a big achievement). But they really push their pupils and there's constant testing. The German grammar school equivalents(Gymnasium) are more laid back and less focused on testing, but seem to teach to a high level. Extra activities are less integral to school there though.

@User48321 tbf the university system is driving this. There are fewer U.K. places in many of the universities than ever and it does seem as though this trend may continue if fees are to remain at a similar level to what they are now for U.K. students. It does put pressure on parents if that's what they hope for their dc.

That does sound good in Italy. I prefer systems that allow you to do extra curricular outside of school but allow time for it. I went to school in Germany for a little bit and the school finished at 1pm every day and you could choose to do extra curricular after school. It allowed so much time to get good at something instead of fitting it in here and there.

I don't know the answer to your question to be honest. I really like the UK EYFS and Primary curriculum but I do agree that senior is awful. I have family in Poland and really like the way they teach in senior school. It's based on the periods of literature. So:
The medieval era.
The Renaissance.
The Enlightenment.
Romanticism.
The Victorian era.
Modernism.
Postmodernism.

They cover geography, history, and literature in each of these. Their maths and science is exceptional too. However, those kids have long days at school and a lot of homework. They do end school with an incredible amount of knowledge and fluency in English as a minimum but often German too. I think the biggest difference is their attitude to education though. The behaviour in classes is nothing like the UK and teachers are respected. It's very traditional.

I don't think the UK senior curriculum would be so dry of the teachers could actually teach KS3. Because of, mainly behaviour, schools are having to teach exams earlier and earlier.
I'm in my 30s and I genuinely don't remember starting any GCSE content until Y10. I had a really great experience and learnt lots in KS3.

I like the Irish idea of Transition Year - 4th year in secondary school which allows a lot of time for extra curricular stuff, work experience, working with charities etc

I think the UK system is very relaxed compared to the rest of the world. There are a number of pathways here that all lead to the same place, that simply does not exist in many countries. Provision for SEN dc is also very good in comparison.

@Dodgeitornot I've worked with polish people before. Those I've worked with have impressed me with their education, I agree, I feel like in years 7-9, when I went to secondary school we had a separate education to gcse, then years 10-11 we started gcse education & I learned so much more than what they cover now as a result. The ks1-2 is fine if they then didn't repeat so much in ks3/4!

@feralunderclass what do other countries that you know of do not do, that the U.K. does if a dc doesn't get on in the education system then?

I don’t think any country has a perfect system because by the nature of them they are all going to be offering a narrow path one way or the other. I don’t think there exists anywhere a system which is based on what is right for every individual.

I am actually very impressed at the depth of things DS is learning at secondary, it’s the same school as I went to and he certainly gets a much broader education than I did there!

How long is a piece of string?

It depends how you define "best education" and what purpose you think education is for?

Does the UK push teenagers through qualifications because it develops skills that will be useful to them in their future lives or because our society uses qualifications as a form of gatekeeping for access to prestige and status?

What do you want from an education system?

I'm not being snippy, genuinely asking.

Yes, there is definitely a lot of repetition but I think that's because the education system in the UK is expected to be inclusive to everyone. It's why so many people are willing to pay for the super selective privates. Those don't teach any better, but they move at a pace that allows the child to learn lots. They're not stifled by the needs of the rest of the class as the needs are mostly similar.

I think the UK is trying to achieve the impossible, on a very small budget. Extreme chase for results and data, as well as inclusivity at all costs. It is one of the few countries I know of where the people in charge of education aren't teachers. This shouldn't be the case. It shouldn't be possible for someone like Michael Gove to sit one day and decide to overhaul the curriculum, or scrap btecs. This should be a team of experts in education, child development etc, which is the case in quite a lot of countries. Education shouldn't be the puppet for politicians the way is has been here and it has caused havock.

It is clear that kids have had an extremely different experience of education in the UK in the last 10 years and I think where we really really messed up is by closing so many special schools and additional resource units in the name of inclusion. There's an expectation for mainstream to be suitable for all, with no money for it. Most EHCPs aren't worth the paper they're on and LAs are broke so even if they want to be nice and fully fund a TA, they can't.

The actual UK curriculum really isn't that bad. I think your annoyance is probably at the delivery of it and general mismanagement of education here. It is a mess all over the world, but it feels like the UK is doing a particularly bad job at the moment.

I think that the whole learning for the sake of exams thing has gone too far. The current system seems to be heading more in this direction despite the internet opening up so many more opportunities to diversify the learning opportunities.

I agree with the PP who said that in England at least, the attitude to learning can be poor so perhaps that's incorporated into the current system.

It depends on the child.

The outcome of secondary in England is good for those with narrow interests/specialisms.
Othe countries generally require a much broader education until much later - and so suits those with broad interests, and those not yet decided what to specialize in.

Personally, I would have left school at 18 with much less respectable set of results if I'd also been required to do English, a humanity and a language. My results would have spread much more - like my GCSE's. So, aged 16 I have grades from A* to D. At A level I have AAABB - from the 90s, where 3 A levels were typical

Every system has its plusses and minuses. You won't ever find a system that works for everyone . Someone upthread mentioned that they liked the idea of the Irish transition year. Personally I don't like it. I didn't do it and I wouldn't be overly encouraging my DC to do it. A lot just depends on the individual person.

There is no 'best' because you have to ask 'best for who'?

Bright academic hard working high achievers?
Children with SEN?
Vocational and technical education?

So for example Germany and Switzerland both have excellent, well developed options that don't rely so heavily on university and lead to apprenticeships and higher technical education. But the streaming and setting process is quite rigid and there's data showing class and racial/ethnic bias.

The French system provides a more well rounded curriculum that still has opportunities to specialise, but it's quite rigid and is a hard system for children who don't fit.

The USA and Canada do really well at mainstreaming children with SEN and having flexible curricula but focus less on stretching the most academically able (and in the USA has an unacceptable level of variation in quality).

My husband is Spanish and went to the local high school. The education he got there far surpasses the opportunities I had at private school here in England.

An excellent school in the US will have depth, flexibility, creativity, and good provision for the very able (often college courses offered to students who are ready for it).
The bad schools are awful.

look at the PISA education ranking to show worldwide comparisons

Even the best private schools in the US are now teaching that punctuality and math are white supremacy and humans can change sex. I absolutely would not rate them.

Plus their obsession with masking kids and closing schools throughout Covid had created an unprecedented (but entirely predictable) dip in numeracy and literacy levels that will take decades to fix. Awful stuff.

https://www.thefp.com/p/the-school-that-couldnt-quit-covid

@mangomammoth our system allows dc to progress to the next year regardless of their exam scores (obviously post GCSE is the exception). In many countries if you don't pass the year you can't progress to the next year. This disproportionately affects those with SpLDs, who will never be able to finish secondary school. We also have recognized, alternative exams that are easier than GCSE's, eg Functional Skills. It's increasingly possible to enter university without A levels. In the UK there are several universities that even accept Access courses for medicine and dentistry. There is a fairly diverse range of qualifications that have recognized A Level equivalency such as Btecs, GNVQ etc. This makes getting into university much easier. My own dB was not academic at all, had to sit GCSE English and maths several times. He did Btec sport, which was practical and some coursework, no final exams. This allowed him to get into university (albeit an ex poly) and go onto do a PGCE. His failure at GCSE didn't allow him to do A levels, so if we didn't have an alternative route then university would be out of the question.

Our slimline 3 subjects at A levels also massively advantages those who aren't very academic. A child who is very artistic/creative could do A level art, materials and textiles and PE for example and score very highly. Contrast this to the Leaving Certificate system in Ireland, where you must do a certain amount of subjects (is it 6?) that include English and maths, and your overall score is averaged. If you are artistic but not academic this will hinder your chances of being able to go to university.

I'm about to graduate my oldest from high school in the US -- overall I'm happy, but there's definitely areas for improvement academically. Language teaching is weak, but this seems to be an issue for Anglophone countries generally. And no, they're not learning that punctuality is white supremacy (and I live in a very liberal area)

@feralunderclass good points, however do you not think allowing the narrowing down to subjects you like too early prevents dc from being exposed to a greater number of subjects, and that the exam culture that exists here prevents dc from even even wanting to attempt their weaker subjects that they may find at least in part difficult but still interesting?

And this may lead to an interest later on in life when they have more time or at least an understanding when someone else mentions the subject?