Concerning behaviour 5yr old daughter

[Magenta1234]

Hi, I’d really appreciate some advice and guidance. I genuinely feel lost and not sure on next steps as she displays challenging behaviour at home and anxious tendencies at school. So school not really helping as behaviours not being seen..

our dd is 5 years old and displaying challenging behaviour. She has always been very busy and in to everything but it’s definitely more noticeable now she’s older. So here goes...some of the more recent behaviours at home:
-frequent meltdowns over anything and everything. Hitting, scratching faces, spitting, toppling dining chairs and ornaments etc.
-destructive with everything, breaks toys, colours in barbies faces, breaks plants, draws on furniture etc—can’t turn my back for two minutes or shes up to something, pouring bubble Bath all over floor, putting toothpaste/cosmetics in soap etc. Anything she can get hands on and says she doesn’t know why she does it.
-issues getting dressed everyday, will only wear dark leggings and t shirts. Then we have issues with them being too long/short/baggy/tight and same with socks. Resulting in meltdowns over the smallest issue.
-wouldn’t take old clothes off last weekend and went to bed with clothes she wore all day. Had to spend all next day trying to get them off her- resulting in meltdown.
-is really busy at home, jumping over sofa, doing flips over back of sofa, climbing. If I tell her not to do something she will do it.
-caught her weeing under kitchen table this week and realised she had done it before and we thought it was the dog! Said she didn’t know why she done it. We can’t understand why she did this.
-used scissors to cut clothes and denied it.
-meltdowns after school over the most basic thing, taking seatbelt off, refusing to put it on etc.
-doesn’t want me to talk to her in front of other people, doesn’t like any attention on herself. If a shopkeeper tries to talk to her she gets anxious, hides has meltdown again.
-shopping is horrendous, jumps and hangs from trolly, swinging upside down.
-refuses to go to parties, last time she sat on my lap and refused to mix with anyone. If any parent spoke to her she’d hide her face.
-had meltdown in ballet as another unknown adult was in the room.
-anxious going to school, bad belly and trouble leaving me.
-this is the thing though, no behaviour issues in school! She is anxious and has trouble making friends but behaviour is ok.
-when I collect her she doesn’t like me talking to her or me drawing attention to her.

She is a very intelligent 5 year old, is reading and above average academically.

Sorry it’s so long, I could keep going but would be here all night. Any advice or guidance would be great. Do you think possible adhd/asd? I feel so sad for her and want to try to help make home life better for her and her siblings 😞😢

There are horrendous amounts of additives & things children are sensitive to in middle class sounding snacks too!!!

Look into deescalation methods for now rather than actions/consequences strategies until you've had your referral.

While you are waiting for an assessment an appointment with an Occupational therapist for children would be useful as they would give you ideas for the sensory issues. Remember socks that have seams can be like torture as can labels on the back of tops . Soft/ soft all the way. If she has a school uniform might be worth looking at what's against her skin that could be annoying her all day. School might agree to her having a special attachment for her chair so sitting is more comfortable and she is not holding everything in and exploding when she gets home. As well as a cosy corner sometimes all that in a pop up tent can help as blocks out light and really cuts down on overstimulation. An OT will help with all this.
Even if she gets a diagnosis stuff will need to be put in place afterwards so good to start now. Parent presuming she has Autism as that will mean you understand why and it's not her fault. The sooner you get help the better .Talk to the school and explain what happens when she gets home as they may already have things in place for other children which they could use for her eg a sensory room. Don't listen to any nonsense from them that she is fine in school. The child is not fine she is in agony and that's why she explodes. They should understand that.

You're getting lots of helpful advice here about neurodivergance so I won't repeat that - but some of the behaviours you describe are also symptoms of trauma and abuse. I would have a look at the NSPCC website and perhaps have a conversation with a safeguarding lead at school to help initiate some conversations about safety.
Best wishes OP

A lot of the stuff she's doing is sensory seeking so can you find non-destructive ways for her to get that input? Eg buy cheap bubble bath she is allowed to pour into bath/water table etc

My daughter has similar behaviour issues, though not as frequent as it sounds your daughter does. She is well behaved at school but at home or with close friends and family she can become aggressive..hitting, spitting, kicking, getting things to hit us with, saying really hurtful things. She also really hates us talking to her Infront of others, she went crazy at her dad for talking to her in the school playground and went on a kicking rampage . It can be so hard when you see other kids happily running and cuddling their parents. We are actually very close family and get on very well but she struggles so much with emotional regulation and anger that often she can't control it . I know young kids often do but it's getting worse not better, I work with kids with SEND and see similarities.

I have made an appointment to speak to the school senco but I expect to not be taken that seriously as they say she is fine in school. I suspect she has ADHD as I have it as does my sister. If you don't get anywhere with the school you could try asking for a referral from via your Dr. Or even private if you can afford it. I did try with my Dr a while ago but they said they don't do it until they are 6 but could be worth trying. I came across a book last week that has already really helped me so much. I've tried so many parenting books and advice but this one seems to work well for my daughter. The title is quite extreme but it's called "how not to murder your ADHD child" the author has ADHD herself and is a counsellor, I listened to it on audible and it gave a really good insight and her tips have helped us already. I hope you manage to get the support and advice you need. good luck, it's really hard x

Personally, while waiting for CAMHS and if you can afford it, I would try to see a private sensory integration trained occupational therapist. They should be able to give you advice about ‘sensory diets‘. There is a book called the out of sync a child which is good for parents of sensory kids.
You can buy clothing specifically designed for kids with sensory issues. M&S used to do a range but I don’t have that anymore. If you search for Autism friendly clothes online there are loads.
How does she get on with other children?

Anxiety and intelligence go hand in hand.
My youngest son is very intelligent, he was so bored at school he developed an anxiety disorder, because he has a very low tolerance to boredom.
He is older now and self taught, it works so much better for him, his love of learning has returned. He is a completely different person, so much calmer and happier.

100% would suggest ASD OP (with some aspects of PDA too) sounds like she very accomplished at masking at school then unable to keep it in any longer at home

I would be stealthy trying to record as much and as many of these behaviours as physically possible (even setting up nanny cams out of sight at home etc) then contacting GP and CAMHS with as much evidence as possible, if school are saying she’s fine nobody is going to listen to you unless you’re banging a big drum and using this evidence as a big stick

Ps. Yes agree that it does also sound like possible ASD and/or sensory processing disorder.

Seriously, as a child myself, I had behaviours very similar to the above and my mum was literally at the end of her tether. It turned out it was the orange colourant used in food and drink. I never had orange juice or orange sweets etc at school so I was absolutely fine there. It was like a switch turned off when she realised and eradicated it from my diet. So it is possible that foods can affect behaviour dramatically. Obviously I don't know if that is the case here but I can speak personally from experience.

Im so grateful for all of your support and advice, I’m sat her reading the replies and getting so emotional, just to have someone validate, understand and give hope means so much.
I feel like there’s so much going on I don’t know where to start, I’m going to start with a diary and record everything, make a gp appointment, make an appointment to speak to school senco and start working on the way we manage meltdowns, identifying and avoiding triggers and a calm corner which I just suggested to her and she loved the idea🤞🏻She is so self conscious I don’t think she’d wear ear defenders out in public but worth a try. There are so many different types of behaviours that overlap asd/adhd It’s so hard to know how to manage them, but I have to start somewhere!

So much good advice in this thread already.

One small thing about colouring the Barbie, is it hers or a shared toy. If it's hers consider letting her colour it. My autistic DD colours her soft toys with pens, it's annoying for me but so incredibly soothing for her. With an ND child, you have to reframe your ideas about what is naughtiness.

I’d agree that she could definitely have some neurodivergency. Do get on to the pathway for diagnosis, as other posters have suggested.

Please don’t take this the wrong way, because parenting a child with possible ADHD and/or ASD is hard but you could do with some help finding the best way to manage her behaviour at home. Read up some of the parenting books, like The Explosive Child https://www.amazon.co.uk/Explosive-Child-Sixth-Understanding-Chronically-dp-0063092468/dp/0063092468/ref=dp_ob_title_bk
and see if there are and relevant parenting courses on offer. Emphasis on relevant because you don’t have a NT child, so normal parenting techniques may well not work. This isn’t a criticism of what you’ve tried so far. You need an array of strategies to help your DD, some will help, some won’t but having knowledge of a lot of methods you can try that typical parents don’t need will help you all.

Would you be ok with filming her meltdowns so at least the sendco & anyone you’re referred to can see how she behaves at home?

I'm not a fan of the naughty step it's never helped ours. With our grandson who's improving as he gets older. He would go off to the playroom and we'd wait for him quietly to return. There's some good books for you to read together. Big little feelings was good

You've had loads of great advice already so I will try not to repeat things.

Agree that it could be ASD/PDA and/or ADHD, agree with advice to read up on parenting strategies for these conditions, the PDA society has some great stuff on low demand parenting, for example, and also look up Dr Naomi Fisher (https://www.naomifisher.co.uk/) - she recently did a fantastic webinar called "the art of low demand parenting in the real world", there are lots of webinars and resources on her website.

If I were you I would stop the ballet/dance. It really sounds as if she is masking in school and you are struggling with the fallout at home, so I would take away anything non-essential that is causing more difficulties. For my DC the only thing we are doing outside school is swimming lessons (and we tried some that didn't work out, then had to take a break and try a different format).

Agree with the recommendation to find an Occupational Therapist who does sensory integration and has experience in ASD/ADHD. If you can afford it, get them to go an assessment - you can share this with school including any recommendations. For example our OT recommended sensory circuits and my child has been doing them at school ever since.

i got my child a sensory swing (as I noticed they were using the swing a lot at the OT) and that's been successful, it wasn't too expensive and was definitely worth getting, you just have to find a good place for it in the house (and instal it securely to a ceiling joist).

We also got a trampoline which is not used as much as I would like, given the cost of it (and effort clearing space in the garden!) but definitely worth considering if she likes jumping and if you have the space and money.

Lastly do talk to your GP and keep talking to the SENCO. A diary is an excellent idea. Maybe even take videos or sound recordings if you can. Find out what the process is for ASD/ADHD assessment in your area; in some places it has to go through GP and in others it has to go through school. Lastly contact your local SENDIASS service as they can be very helpful.

Good luck, and hang on in there!

Good luck OP, you have had some great advice here but I just want to add to the discussion on food. My diagnosed ASD son absolutely reacts negatively to certain colourings in food and also derives great benefit from observing as healthy a diet as possible in the circumstances. It is always worth thinking about diet as well as everything else.

Oh I just thought of a couple more things that help my child, who struggles with transitions, changes in routine and new things...
Firstly we have a visual timer (bought from Amazon, not expensive) which we use for lots of things, screen time, car journeys, in the mornings to show DC how long we have before we have to leave for school (so I will put school uniform on bed and remind DC how long they have left to get dressed). It's not a magic fix but it does help.
Secondly a visual calendar, to begin with i made it myself but now DC does it with me. We use images and to show things like school days, activities (eg after school club, swimming), birthday parties, etc. DC likes knowing what is going to happen, how many days until x, etc, and also likes having some input into deciding what we will do on some days.
Not sure if those things will help your DD but just thought I'd mention them as they've helped us so much. (My DC is 6, we've been using the timer and calendar for the last few years.)

Hi OP. Much the same as a lot of posters above she does sound like she’s exhibiting very similar behaviour to my DD who is now on the ADHD assessment pathway.

I will warn you though it has taken 4 years for us to get to the assessment from asking school /camhs/GP for help so techniques for coping in the meantime are going to be necessary. The waiting lists are huge.

You buy noise cancelling headphones, and she can look like shes listening to music (or even actually listening to music!)