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Pronouns

15 replies

CurlewKate · 03/05/2023 11:19

I've noticed that "they" and "them" are being used more and more as singular pronouns. I read a childbirth thread yesterday where I thought for quite a while was about twins! I see that there is a need for gender neutral pronouns but I'm not convinced "they and them" is sensible and it can be confusing. I wonder whether we should introduce something new as a singular gender neutral term. If you agree-any ideas for what it should be? How about "thee" and "thou"?

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MysteriesOfTheOrganism · 03/05/2023 11:22

"They" has been used a singular non-gendered pronoun in everyday British English for many years. It really isn't new.

HipTightOnions · 03/05/2023 11:26

MysteriesOfTheOrganism · 03/05/2023 11:22

"They" has been used a singular non-gendered pronoun in everyday British English for many years. It really isn't new.

It's been used for a person whose sex is unknown - "Someone rang the doorbell but they went away".

Use for a person whose sex is known is very new.

Iloveabaconbutty · 03/05/2023 11:36

And yet "they" and "them" are fundamentally references to the plural. I realise that language is constantly evolving but can we not introduce an entirely new set of gender-neutral words as in the German language instead of using words which already have specific meanings?

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Simianwalk · 03/05/2023 11:39

I would use it in this context

" Do you know Rachel Smith, she works in finance?"

"Errm I don't think I know them?"

Probably wrong but definitely say it interchangeably with know her/him

CurlewKate · 03/05/2023 11:49

@Simianwalk That's interesting. Why wouldn't you say "I don't think I know her" when the other person has used "Rachel" and "she"?

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Tukmgru · 03/05/2023 11:52

It’s interesting, because people use ‘they’ without thinking for the singular when they don’t know the person and their name might be ambiguous/you just have their surname or a host of other cases.

There are only two gendered singular pronouns in English - He and She. ‘You’ is not gendered. ‘I’ is not gendered. In many Latin languages plurals are gendered ‘ils/Elles’ in French, though ‘we/nous’ is not, interestingly.

Even more complicated is the gender of nouns of course. If you ask a portuguese speaker why ‘table/mesa’ is feminine the only real answer is ‘it just is’. Again, something English doesn’t have, but many other languages do.

Ambiguity is further prevalent in English with ‘you’, as it can be occasionally tricky to know whether the ‘you’ is singular or plural. Also when ‘you’ is used to replace the rather antiquated ‘one’, it can sound quite accusative!

At least English has a non gendered singular (if previously rarely used) in ‘they’. It’s much harder in Latin and some Germanic (don’t get me started on German proper) languages, and I imagine in non Latin languages.

The Finnish language has no gender at all, so they can find this whole debate pretty weird.

I think it would raise a lot more opprobrium if we tried to introduce new pronouns (even more so than it’s already getting), as has happened when people tried ‘Ze’.

GarlicGrace · 03/05/2023 11:52

Iloveabaconbutty · 03/05/2023 11:36

And yet "they" and "them" are fundamentally references to the plural. I realise that language is constantly evolving but can we not introduce an entirely new set of gender-neutral words as in the German language instead of using words which already have specific meanings?

Well, the German neuter pronouns translate as "it" - which is our neuter pronoun already!

Can't see that going down too well with the pronoun crowd Wink

MysteriesOfTheOrganism · 03/05/2023 11:55

HipTightOnions · 03/05/2023 11:26

It's been used for a person whose sex is unknown - "Someone rang the doorbell but they went away".

Use for a person whose sex is known is very new.

True. But the usage as a third-person singular dates back to at least 1375 (according to the OED) - this usage is not likely to go away anytime soon. As for the "new" usage - you're not likely to persuade people to use something else instead. The new usage will either take hold or fade into oblivion.

Makingamess4212 · 03/05/2023 12:04

We never found out the gender for recent DS, so we used "they" and "them" throughout the whole pregnancy. I hated calling him an IT. There was no other choice really 🤷‍♀️

Simianwalk · 03/05/2023 12:14

@CurlewKate
I think it might be a local thing. I've never given it any though. It's more "I don't know 'em" rather than "them" 😁

GarlicGrace · 03/05/2023 12:25

The made-up pronouns zie, zey, zem, zir (can also be spelled with an x) have been available for at least 10 years now. Seems to have gained very limited traction.

Iloveabaconbutty · 03/05/2023 12:30

@GarlicGrace Wow, one can learn something new everyday, as they say. I wasn't aware of these.

BinturongsSmellOfPopcorn · 03/05/2023 12:35

Thee and thou are second person singular; repurposing them as third person singular is far sillier than using second person plural as second person singular.

Jetband · 27/05/2023 01:31

Iloveabaconbutty · 03/05/2023 11:36

And yet "they" and "them" are fundamentally references to the plural. I realise that language is constantly evolving but can we not introduce an entirely new set of gender-neutral words as in the German language instead of using words which already have specific meanings?

I totally agree. Whatever happened to ze/zem /zeir?

CurlewKate · 27/05/2023 10:58

There are circumstances where we do need to know whether the pronoun is gender neutral or plural.

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