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Fit/Sick note when employer is also the parent.

14 replies

JeremyJordanseyebrows · 03/05/2023 09:20

Dear wise mumsnetters, please help with a unique set of circumstances between DS (18) and ExH.

DS has worked for his Dad for approximately 2 years, initially at the weekend and now full time. He does not have a contract so the hours are adhoc, and he can work anything from 10-50 hours per week as 10 hour shifts.

Yesterday, DS was injured at work when a vehicle he was travelling in the back of suddenly developed a major fault whereby thick black smoke was coming from the engine. DS and the driver immediately attempted to exit the vehicle, however in the panic, the driver stalled and the vehicle jolted enough to cause DS to fall and bang his head on equipment. DS cannot remember if he was knocked out but knows that he was conscious by the time the driver realised he had not exited the vehicle and opened the back door to find out where he was.

DS telephoned me to let me know what had happened and mentioned that his Dad was en route with a replacement vehicle and a mechanic. I advised DS to check if the vehicle was safe to enter, and to locate the first aid kit which is carried to get an ice pack for the lump developing on his head. I also asked him to make sure his Dad checked he was ok when he arrived and possibly seek medical attention if required.

I did not hear from DS or his Dad until DS set off to drive home. I asked how he was and he replied "rubbish - I think I've got a concussion". I asked if his Dad had checked him but he said that he was only concerned with recovering the vehicle and that he had overheard him call him a dickhead to another staff member. I asked that DS just concentrate on driving home safely.

When he arrived home, I checked his head which had a lump but was not bleeding. I am a nurse with extensive neuro/ICU background so am satisfied that DS does not currently require medical treatment but does possibly have a concussion.

This morning, DS does not feel well enough to drive to work. He has a headache and feels slightly jumbled but nothing that I am currently overly concerned about. He has let his Dad know that he will not be working today and that he would let him know about his next shift which is on Friday. His Dad had told him to take Friday off aswell and to get a fit note from the doctor before returning to work next week.

I have explained to DS that this is not the process for self certification and fit notes and that he would need to be off work for longer than 7 days before getting a fit note from a doctor. I have shown him the guidelines from the Gov.uk website but he says that his Dad insists he get a fit note regardless of how long he is off work.

It's really tricky with his Dad being his employer. I do not feel in a position to to challenge his employment practices (which are historically not great) as DS is worried he'll get sacked from a job he really enjoys.

I suppose I'm asking if this seems like something to stand my ground on and intervene with the correct procedure according to the government guidelines, or just let DS follow the instructions given to him by his Dad. I have tried to prepare DS for a time when he isn't related to his employer in the future and to stand up for himself in the workplace. I am also aware that DS is in a tricky position and doesn't necessarily want his Mum fighting his battles for him.

Thankyou for reading.

OP posts:
mindutopia · 03/05/2023 09:52

I would leave him to it. More than likely, he'll feel fine to return to work on Friday anyway (dh had a similar injury a few weeks ago due to motorbike accident and the concussion was fine within about 48 hours). He needs to learn to stand up for himself. What happens if he just doesn't get the fit note and returns to work next week? Would his dad really fire him? That seems a bit ridiculous. That said, it's no trouble to get a fit note. I got 2 last year and it was a 10 minute phone call with the GP and she emailed it over.

TeenDivided · 03/05/2023 10:02

Not what you asked, but DD has literally just sat a test regarding employment rights. He should have had a contract no later than 3 weeks after starting employment.

JeremyJordanseyebrows · 03/05/2023 11:12

mindutopia · 03/05/2023 09:52

I would leave him to it. More than likely, he'll feel fine to return to work on Friday anyway (dh had a similar injury a few weeks ago due to motorbike accident and the concussion was fine within about 48 hours). He needs to learn to stand up for himself. What happens if he just doesn't get the fit note and returns to work next week? Would his dad really fire him? That seems a bit ridiculous. That said, it's no trouble to get a fit note. I got 2 last year and it was a 10 minute phone call with the GP and she emailed it over.

His Dad has told him not to go in on Friday regardless. I can't imagine he'll get sick pay, he doesn't get a payslip (despite asking) so we'll never know anyway!

Getting an unnecessary sick/fit not before the 7day self cert period is up seems like a waste of everyone's time, absolutely if it goes over the 7days - although someone answering the phone at the surgery is a modern miracle.

It annoys me that the lines are so blurred between Dad and boss and that his Dad seems to just make up the rules of employment. The reason I want to make a stand is so that DS is aware of what is expected of him as an employee and what to expect from an employer in the future.

OP posts:
fussygalore77 · 03/05/2023 11:15

This sounds dodgy on so many levels! No payslip is a worry. Is he paying tax, NI? It really does not sound like a good set up for your son

JeremyJordanseyebrows · 03/05/2023 11:15

TeenDivided · 03/05/2023 10:02

Not what you asked, but DD has literally just sat a test regarding employment rights. He should have had a contract no later than 3 weeks after starting employment.

The contract he signed 2 years ago was for cleaning the office on a Saturday. Since then he's undertaken his own training (sources and funded by me) as none was offered and is now working as one of the most qualified members of the team, definitely not cleaning!! He's asked for a payslip countless times without any luck. If it wasn't his Dad, he'd have left a long time ago due to the poor management style.

OP posts:
JeremyJordanseyebrows · 03/05/2023 11:17

fussygalore77 · 03/05/2023 11:15

This sounds dodgy on so many levels! No payslip is a worry. Is he paying tax, NI? It really does not sound like a good set up for your son

He has asked these questions - his Dad claims to be paying PAYE and NI on his behalf but we've seen no evidence of this.

It's really difficult talking to DS about things as his Dad has him convinced it's all above board and I'm just being spiteful.

OP posts:
Georgie8 · 03/05/2023 11:21

Not the question, but he can check his NICs record on-line (think under pension forecast).

JeremyJordanseyebrows · 03/05/2023 11:27

Georgie8 · 03/05/2023 11:21

Not the question, but he can check his NICs record on-line (think under pension forecast).

That's a really good idea, thankyou. I'll suggest it when he's feeling a bit better.

OP posts:
TooOldForThisNonsense · 03/05/2023 11:30

TeenDivided · 03/05/2023 10:02

Not what you asked, but DD has literally just sat a test regarding employment rights. He should have had a contract no later than 3 weeks after starting employment.

If that was the answer in the test and it was in the U.K., it’s wrong!

OP - GPS often won’t give a fit note until the 7 days have elapsed.

Pinnythewoo · 03/05/2023 11:30

Yikes there's so much wrong with this set up that I think getting a fit note is the least of his worries. Doctors will sometimes do them before 7 days of absence but for a cost, I'm sure if your son asked dad for £30+ for the note he wouldn't be bothered then.

JeremyJordanseyebrows · 03/05/2023 11:38

Pinnythewoo · 03/05/2023 11:30

Yikes there's so much wrong with this set up that I think getting a fit note is the least of his worries. Doctors will sometimes do them before 7 days of absence but for a cost, I'm sure if your son asked dad for £30+ for the note he wouldn't be bothered then.

I have mentioned there may be a cost of his Dad insists on a fit note as the GP will 100% know the process of self certifying.

DS keeps saying "he just wants to be sure I'm fit to work". I've explained that if he feels well enough to work then that is enough in the eyes of the law and he isn't operating heavy machinery or driving other people around.

He's currently on the sofa feeling a bit sorry for himself. Hopefully he'll be back to his normal bouncy self after a bit of tlc from his Mum!

OP posts:
notquitesoyoung · 03/05/2023 11:40

Given how difficult it is to get a Dr's appointment of any description I would think DS will find it impossible to fulfil his DF's request. Maybe point DS in the direction of the Dr's to make his request, possibly leaving out the fact it's his Dad requesting it and see what he get's told. He can then report back to his DF.

On the legalities front it is in DS's best interests now and for the future to ensure HE isn't breaking any employment laws as a result of his DF's terrible management - if things go wrong he will be answerable for his part and can't just say Dad was taking care of it (in a way, isn't this just a form of abuse?) Ensuring he is paying the correct tax and NI is the absolute minimum and he shouldn't just bury his head in the sand. DS may enjoy the job but maybe he needs to go somewhere else to work where he'll be treated as a proper legal employee.

Theunamedcat · 03/05/2023 11:42

Create a hmrc account you can see his wages on there if dad is paying him on the books

JeremyJordanseyebrows · 03/05/2023 12:01

notquitesoyoung · 03/05/2023 11:40

Given how difficult it is to get a Dr's appointment of any description I would think DS will find it impossible to fulfil his DF's request. Maybe point DS in the direction of the Dr's to make his request, possibly leaving out the fact it's his Dad requesting it and see what he get's told. He can then report back to his DF.

On the legalities front it is in DS's best interests now and for the future to ensure HE isn't breaking any employment laws as a result of his DF's terrible management - if things go wrong he will be answerable for his part and can't just say Dad was taking care of it (in a way, isn't this just a form of abuse?) Ensuring he is paying the correct tax and NI is the absolute minimum and he shouldn't just bury his head in the sand. DS may enjoy the job but maybe he needs to go somewhere else to work where he'll be treated as a proper legal employee.

I have had this conversation with him regarding ensuring the correct PAYE/NIC is being paid and that there is a private pension plan in place. It's not straightforward having this conversation as he doesn't fully understand where he stands regarding his employment. He thinks he is employed but the other workers are "freelance" and submit an invoice to be paid. DS doesn't submit an invoice.

It's really unclear if he has an annual leave entitlement as he just puts his availability into an app. If he is scheduled to work on a day when he isn't available, he has to apply for a day off which can be turned down for various reasons. I've tried the "just tell him you're not available" route but he's had to work several times when he had plans.

I'm hoping he realises for himself that this job is not the most suitable for his future because he's certainly not going to accept my views on the matter.

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