Sons fighting each other

[Olyvia]

I’m a single parent with sons 14 and 11. They can both be annoying but generally good kids, no trouble at school, nice friends etc. no fighting outside the home. ds1 has some asd traits but no diagnosis, but finds it hard to move on when he feels he’s been wronged.

They have always fought but probabl like normal siblings. But recently ds1 has been so angry with ds2 when ds2 hits or annoys ds1. Shouting and trying to get into ds2 room, usually after ds2 annoyed ds1 then run away. I’m not physically strong enough to separate them. I’m worried ds1 will beat up ds2. Ds2 winds up ds1 though, but then seems terrified at the reaction

I don’t know what to do. I worry ds2 will be harmed, being barricaded in his room and being shouted at is not good. Eventually ds1 calms down and gives up but it am be over 1 hour . I try to get ds1 to leave ds2 alone but he’s so angry he ignores me.

My parents, like you, did nothing to stop the younger one winding up the older.

It’s really hard for me to supervise them and I feel I shouldn’t have to (they both manage to travel to/from school alone for example). But I guess I am going to have to.
will speak to the younger one about not hitting ds1. Ds1 can be overbearing/ bossy but it is not sn excuse for ds2 to hit him

@TeenDivided yeah, I think separation might be the way forward

Sibling on sibling violence is not normal and there should be very swift consequences. I would point out to both of them that the age of criminal responsibility in England is 10. If either of them injure the other and school asks how they were injured then safeguarding reporting kicks in. Violence in the home is unacceptable from anyone, by anyone. Tell them that they cannot hit each other. Get them to understand assault is a criminal offence.

For now as they cannot get along they have to remain separate unless you are there in the room with them. The second Ds2 starts winding Ds1 up he is removed from both you and Ds1. Totally unfair on Ds1 to have to put up with that behaviour and he shouldn't. Explain the consequences but step in fast. One warning and then immediate removal.

Lots of excuses. Just supervise your children and stop your child deliberately winding up his brother. Fgs.

Maybe tell ds2 he has to stay downstairs with you until he can behave himself?

I don't think it's all on ds2 though, ds1 needs to learn some control.

I agree. If they can't be trusted together they have to be separated.

You don't feel you should have to supervise your own children??

It may be that your younger child has found an effective way of forcing you to parent - the situation you describe is of long periods of upset in your home. Normal supervision would be easier than your current situation.

I actually recognise these behaviours in my two. It is very difficult. My two are absolute best friends at times. But sometimes younger one winds older one up. It doesn’t last long though, after 5 minutes they usually apologise to each other. It happens before I can intervene. Sometimes he is blatantly annoying and sometimes it’s just a silly voice he has noticed older brother finds annoying and keeps doing it over and over. It’s difficult to get the balance between older child ignoring the odd little thing that is no big deal and younger one not deliberately trying to get a reaction.

Well no, it should be normal, with a 14 and 11 year old, to be able to get on with normal household tasks, pop out for errands-even work- without them knocking shit out of each other. The state certainly thinks so- from secondary age you are expected to work 35 hours per week, something that cannot be achieved without leaving your kids on their own for a period each day without supervision.

I'm blowed if I know, OP- every time my back is turned there is an outbreak of hostilities between my 8 year old and my 13 year old. I usually punish the 13 year old because he should know better, but the 8 year old simply will not keep away from his brother, not when I tell him, not when his brother tells him to leave him alone, not when I sit him down and talk to him about the necessity of giving his brother space. Then, if I punish DS1 severely, DS2 often intercedes for him!!

I came on this thread hoping for some decent advice, and all anyone can say is "supervise them". What, when I'm cooking dinner and they're in the living room? When I'm hanging washing outside? They make sure to hit each other when they think I'm not looking, of course! But they're not toddlers- you can't supervise bigger children constantly!

I think letting ds1 hit ds2 back would be a good life lesson tbh.

siblings are a safe way to learn boundaries, risk and people skills. It’s a major benefit of having siblings.

Getting a smack from your brother who loves you after purposely winding them up is far better than getting absolutely battered from someone outside of your family who you’ve wound up and gives no shits about you so may not show restraint and cause serious harm.

It’ll only take one time and ds2 won’t do it again and ds1 will probably feel bad. Problem solved.

But my post will be flamed and branded irresponsible.

Yes sometimes I feel me intervening fuels it more. They tend to get on better when I am not there I think. It’s like they want a referee!

Def not normal, speak with their school and yr GP to see what he’ll they can help them and a parenting course for u.

Tumtr same. It's as if they know it's a foolproof way to wind me up.

DS2 sounds like a nasty little bully.
You need to stop him from doing this.

Erm why are you letting this happen? Ground rules,discipline and being sterner stronger yourself would soon fix this

Hang on. Have I got this right?
DS2 hits DS1.
DS1 gets angry that he has just been hit.
He starts shouting at DS2 and wanting an apology.
You get angry with DS1 because he wants an apology and you don't want to make DS2 give one because it's too much hassle.

You are worried DS2 might remember DS1's "rages"
You are worried DS2 might get hurt by DS1

this would imply that despite huge provocation, he has not yet retaliated to the stage where his brother has been injured I.e. DS1 has shown remarkable restraint. And you are annoyed with DS1?

I can speak to ds2, tell him hitting never acceptable. He will no doubt blame ds1, ds1 can be bossy/overbearing
How can this even be vaguely reasonable (as you seem to find it) as an excuse? DS 2 is not a baby, even if he is yours, he is responsible for his behaviour, not his brother. Does he hit his teachers when they tell him to do something? No, didn't think so. He is choosing to hit his brother and he should have consequences, not DS1 because you don't want to make DS2 apologise.

Seems to be a theme here with both the OP and @crackofdoom where the younger one is being provocative and winding up the older one, then it's the older one who gets punished while the younger one gets away with it every time.

And you wonder why the younger one keeps it up? They are getting a lovely reward every time: the elder sibling gets punished and they get sympathy from the parent even though they are responsible for all the trouble in the first place.

Perhaps if you made the slightest effort to change your younger child's behaviour things might improve. But of course you won't; just go on wailing about the poor little one getting hit.

HappyHolidai no, it's definitely I would say 60/40 with mine, with DS1 being more at fault. Sly slaps and trippings up etc, usually out of my sight unless I catch him at it unexpectedly. He bears even more of the brunt of the punishment though, because DS2 is so small, and he is old enough to know better. With the verbal stuff DS2 has learnt to retaliate and defend himself so it's more like 50/50. So, I tell him to keep away from his brother, seeing that it's such an unhealthy dynamic...the moment my back is turned and I'm trying to get on with something he's off upstairs pestering his brother again....it's only a small house.

and all anyone can say is "supervise them". What, when I'm cooking dinner and they're in the living room?
Well, yes. If they're not old/sensible [choose your adjective] enough to be in the same room together then one comes to help you (or do homework) in the kitchen with you one night and the other the following night.

Basically you have to piss them off enough that it's more attractive for them to behave in the same room together than to fight each other. And as a bonus point you get help with dinner and they learn how to cook.

Personally, I find folding the laundry the biggest deterrent as mine like helping to cook (for now).

oldgrannyish that is actually a useful tip, thanks.

Yeah like it’s ds 2 who is the issue here.

ds1 gets hit, get mad and wants an apology. Ds2 refuses. Runs away playing mummies little baby card. Mum gets mad with ds1.

Punish ds2. You cannot hit someone and expect to get no consequences. Your ds1 shouldn’t be being bullied in his own home which is what this is/is becoming.

So what is ds1 is being a bossy boots, no it’s not fun but his not harming ds2. Being bossed around is not an excuse for hitting someone. Ds2 needs to find a better way than violence.

As does ds1 after already being hit but again if ds2 wasn’t hitting ds1. Ds1 wouldn’t be retaliating.

buy them a pair of boxing gloves each