How are the junior doctor strikes going?

[mids2019]

Do you agree with the pay demands?

Personally I would like to see the nursing strike settled first. The junior doctor strike muddies the water and if the RCN see doctors getting more than 5% then they are surely going to continue to strike.

If we are to agree to the pay demands should the increase be paid through increased taxes or borrowing or from existing budgets?

Independent pension consultant John Ralfe said that a junior doctor earning the third-year pay average of £40,257 would retire after 40 years with an NHS pension paying £29,790 each year – if their salary remained the same throughout their career.
He said the pension deal was “spectacularly bigger” than those offered to private sector workers today. He added that if the same junior doctor saw their pay rise 35pc to £54,347, they would retire on a pension paying £40,000 a year.
The analysis is also based on a scenario where the junior doctor in question never moves off junior pay. The majority of doctors go on to earn far more than £40,257 during their lengthy careers.
Consultants earn a basic salary of anywhere between £88,364 to £119,133 per year, according to the NHS
Not so shabby remuneration compared to the rest of us

And well deserved for someone who has gone through difficult, demanding, and expensive training to work late/night shifts doing a very stressful, highly skilled job involving life and death decisions and significant compassion without meal breaks or toilet breaks and unpalatable working conditions.

I respect and treasure all our hard working NHS staff and I want them to be well treated and looked after so that we can attract the best people to the workforce and keep them in a good condition to treat us when we are at our most vulnerable.

Although it is well documented how poor the working conditions of early career doctors are I don't think pay should be the main reason for striking as extra pay does not necessarily equate immediately to better patient care. 35% in any industry would be unrealistic and juniou r doctors had the opportunity to strike at a number of points during the last decade on the same principle.

Would juniou r doctors accept a pay rise of nurses were offered less than 10% for instance? Nursing and AHP have suffered similar pay reductions over time with additionally having stressful responsible jobs so do they not deserve similar rises?

By 'piggy backing' on the nursing action we are in real danger of losing public support as the public realise that wholesale large pay increased would make th NH S unsustainable and there has been no indication about finding for such increases.

it is now more likely that the nurses will reject 5% as they compare themselves to their medical colleagues and we face months of damaging strikes impacting patient care.

Many in my relatively impoverished social circle look at junior doctor then consultant salary packages and. I am sorry to say although extremely grateful of the work done can not countenance such large pay increases. Junior doctors need to read the room a little better. The fact that th e BMA leader is on holiday in an exotic location instead of striking is again not helping.

The question really is how much will juniou r doctors settle for ? 5% seems reasonable currently if nurses accept their pay offer (and remember teachers were offered less).

Well, it's simple. Move the bulk of their total pay benefit from the pension to early working years.

Not sure what one of the CO chairs going to a family wedding during their booked annual leave has to do with anything (or are we saying we should just give up our entire lives to our job now...I mean I've had mates that have worked the night shift until 830 on their own damn wedding day as "technically" are working the day before

Steve is also apparently on holiday but the media aren't advertising that

The pay restoration only results in increasing pay from £14ph to £19p/h for younger drs, when I was trying to find a cleaner to try to cope with life on regular 60h weeks most are on 18ph (trades people on far more)...does make you wonder why you bother giving up your entire youth, miss weddings/family parties etc to work nights/ evenings /weekends and get into 100k of debt, pay 3-4k a year in indemnity fees mandatory exams etc, be unable to buy a house as have v little say in where in the country you will be living next as allocated by a national system, changing hospitals at a minimum annually often every 2-6m

I mean if that tiny cost compared to track and trace / ppe / mp pay rises etc goes towards stopping the mass exodus to Australia and the complete destruction of our health service, its worth it. I mean tory NHS privatisation will be financially much better for all drs, we just don't want an American system where people can't afford or go bankrupt from medical treatment

@Destiny123

I think other relevant material may include highest paying graduate career websites and medicine is still very much up there. There is scope in presenting relative salaries to those of a given year but absolute values are informative as well.

There does need to be attention paid to the stress and working conditions of junior doctors but the argument has to be presented to the general public in such a way that it isn't just 'I could make much more in the city or abroad so pay me'. Remember many health care systems abroad include a significant private component so we are not really comparing like systems for salaries.

The issue I have with the 35% is that it doesn't seem at all realistic as compared to the RCN demands. As all health care workers are theoretically working for the same 'team' there is an argument for industrial action to be coordinated with agreed goals across the whole NHS as it otherwise leaves workers open to divide and conquer tactics.

The public got behind nursing strikes but I think that was based on the career salaries of lower band staff and performance during the pandemic. I think that there is danger that the 35% figure gets lodged in the public mind and looks extortionate.

If this week's strikes do not get a response from the government then what is the next course of action? The RCN may settle in the next couple of months and the public mat expect doctors to follow suit percentage wise. The alternative is long term striking by one group which may be unpopular....

Junior doctors are not piggy backing on the back of nursing strikes, the BMA was preparing the ballot before the RCN started theirs. Agenda for change salaries haven't been kept as deflated as JDs, and whilst it includes admin and corporate staff as well as nursing and other healthcare staff no way are HCPs going to get any sort of inflation matching pay rise. At the end of the day they are different professions, they might all work for the NHS but they are already separated out for a reason.

Just give 10% across the board to nurses, doctors, physios etc. One is not more worthy than the other and work on improving the working conditions on the ground - ability to get a cup of tea that does not cost £2.50 from costa, etc in the hospital and somewhere to actually sit down and have a break rather than on a chair in a corridor in winter.

Some of what is being talked about is utter rubbish - the hours are much better than they wer -no one is doing the 100+hrs they did 15 yrs ago - a week of nights is 70 hrs but then a week off counters that or split the nights into 3:4 to mke it more manageable, the work is stressful - peoples lives are in your hands both as a nurse or a doctor - that is the nature of the work - does not mean you should get stress pay that is the job you chose.

Remember many health care systems abroad include a significant private component so we are not really comparing like systems for salaries.

This isn't the burden of doctors though, they shouldn't accept pay well well below similar countries just because we have a free at point of use system (as do other places that pay decent money)- it's a job after all and not a charity. If the NHS cannot pay a fair wage perhaps its not sustainable and time to look at alternatives.

I also think currently you have a government that at its core does not believe in the NHS so they will not consider the 35% realistically. The government would be quite happy for medics to move to the private sector or abroad as it is in its ideology.

Personally I would have waited to start pay negotiations with a Labour government

Labour don't have any good ideas for the future of the NHS either, realistically no party seems bothered about sorting out the fundamental issues and have the unpopular decisions. The plan is to increase the number of PAs which is terrible for patient safety rather than to try and retain doctors.

From what I’ve read and heard, the biggest problems seem to be in working conditions, relating to recruitment and retention problems so I get that the pay needs to reflect that.

What I don’t get is how you argue for restitution of pay after agreeing pay awards for all those years in between.

Doctors aren't allowed to join the unions that nurses/physios/paramedics etc use as we are on a totally different contract (which allows them to pay us zero additional money for working saturdays/BH etc unlike the others which have supplements).

I think the nurses etc would be mad accept any below inflation rise too

A week off after working 5 out of 7 days as 13h shifts really doesn't compensate, I spend the first 3 days as a basic vegetable, then the rest trying to clean, batch cook food etc so that I don't have to live on ready meals for the next run of antisocial shifts

We don't do this job for the money, if we did I would be long long gone

night work is crap for anyone who has to do it not just doctors and nurses. No one enjoys it but people do not get sick 9-5.

I think a big problem is the dawning reality as nurses and doctors start working is that nights are part of the deal and learning comes from working to get expereince - no more in the classroom on line - the job is hands on physical and in person

Agenda for change salaries have not been eroded to the extent junior doctor salaries do.

Nursing colleagues work fewer hours (I still think they’re underpaid) than junior doctors who can legally work up to 72 hours in one week. Junior doctors pay for their own exams and nurses don’t.

My nursing colleagues are incredible and underpaid but when something goes wrong on the ward they still call the doctor who ends up being the ultimate decision maker and having to take responsibility for the decision making.

Nurses do an incredible job but they do not have the same level of responsibility.

I went to uni for 6 years and have done multiple post graduate qualifications. I’m about to become a registrar. I’m paid less than trainee nurse practitioners, we are not as well paid as people think.

@lookluv but the stats show that whilst all nhs workers have had a pay cut that doctors have had more of a pay cut than other professionals. So why should we get the same pay rise when we’ve had more of a cut?

I think everyone deserves fair pay and conditions regardless of their position

If they had threatened to strike every year as their pay fell behind no-one would have supported them . And now when they really have dropped back lots of people are saying their demands are unrealistic

We have a government that would prefer to bring in Doctors from poorer countries than train and pay our own NHS hires more foreign doctors than total medical school intake (thetimes.co.uk)

Strikes in the public sector have been precipitated by the cost of living crisis and so on this context it was the most lowly paid NHS staff that had the most powerful argument for an above inflation pay rise.

Nurses asked for 19% , 5% was offered. If juniour doctors are offered similar will there be acceptance?

The problem for asking for 35% is that the government aren't going to give this. In fact Jeremy Hunt has told an IMF sub group that public sector pay rises would lead to spiralling inflation which the government is commited to counter.

the government could just hold ground against public sector pay rises in general using inflation as an argument and what then? If the BMA has matched its members to the top of the hill and down again then this will look like capitulation for the strikers and it's only impact will have been to increase waiting lists for patients.

If a year had been picked that wasn't categorised by generals public sector action then the government may have more room for negotiation and any pay rise wouldn't have been convoluted by the demands of whole swathes of public workers. Currently the government can hold form and tell the public that obviously we can't give 35% across the board to teachers, civil servants etc.

marched

My husband is a hospital consultant, he supports both the juniors and the nurses in their demands for higher pay and better conditions. Why are you trying to divide the two? Surely both are highly deserving?

We have a massive recruitment crisis within the NHS with a mass exodus out to other countries who pay much more for these sought after skills. Brexit saw a lot of European staff leaving. The NHS needs to be an attractive proposition to potential employees, it’s as simple as that, and at the moment it’s being run on goodwill which will run out and is hardly attractive to new recruits.

For all our sakes this needs to be sorted, if we move to the private sector these doctors that you seem to resent for asking for a salary increase will get a huge increase anyway, but there will be a lot of people who won’t be able to access the service if we take the US route. It’s not a good move for this country.

A bit of solidarity is needed here.

Conditions are a huge problem, lots of medical graduates are pulling out from becoming medics because things are so overstretched. This badly needs sorting, and without more resources, additional doctors being tempted to work within the NHS then it’s going to go belly up. Sad times.

Funny you say about the 35% being undoable, when MPs have had a rise of 32% in the same period.

35% is too high an ask I think and risks costing public support.

Aside from the impressive pension. Medical students also receive a lot of taxpayer money during training. Doctor university places and the cost of training them are partly paid by the taxpayer but they don't have to stay in the NHS for any minimum period of time after graduation making the UK I think one of the cheapest places to train (not a bad deal and not one I would get in the private sector).

@bozzabollix

I don't think personally I am dividing the two but having a lot of public sector groups arguing for pay rises simultaneously will create a situation where the government could come up with some blanket maximum for public pay rises in general e.g. 5% and say to the public 'well obviously we can't afford to accommodate everyone's demands so we will give an affordable amount for the same of the economy'. If keeping public support is a concern then affordable public sector pay rises may be necessary.

what is the end game of 5% is offered to junior doctors? Will there be rejection and more strikes and if so when? The 5% may not satisfy all the strikers but the government can say to the tax payer that pay offers are being rejected.....

One problem with more striking is that waiting lists will increase and presumably trusts and their managers will need to come up with strategies to tackle this which will mean presumably more work for all staff?