Table manners in 8yo

[Outandup]

We are fighting a losing battle with DS(8) table manners and I’m feeling so ashamed that he just doesn’t get it (and I’ve noticed people’s disapproval). He is NT before anyone asks. He is a very fussy eater and hot meals are usually partially rejected so using a knife and fork hasn’t had as much practice as a child who does eat hot meals.

Anyway, he does the following:

-Very messy eater - think food being spilt (not deliberately) all over the table/floor and his clothes. Wipes hands on clothes as well as napkin- pretty much looks like a grubby toddler after meals. Sometimes food in hair.
-Eats with mouth open making an awful chomping noise
-Won’t use a knife and fork properly and frequently puts hands on food to hold it and cut it (has been shown countless times how to use cutlery, has cutlery with wider handles for better grip)
-Has a fit if served up food he decides he doesn’t like (which changes daily). We have ‘progressed’ from him running to his room screaming in rage, to sitting at the table and ranting.

-Just messes around with the food sometimes with both fork and hands, almost like a toddler experimenting with new foods. He hated messy play groups as a toddler and it’s almost like he’s discovered playing with food
-If he has a food like a choc chip cookie he will sit and pick all the choc chips out with his fingers and eating them separately and making an absolute mess
-Can chat normally at the table if it’s just us (DH and I) but if we have a guest or go to someone else’s house for a meal he starts acting like a fool, interrupts conversations by quite literally talking over me in particular, saying loudly “no no no, you did XYZ. No no no this happened…”. Starts loudly burbling absolute nonsense that you can see people thinking WTAF
-Does always say please and thank you, remains in his seat and asks to leave the table, never spills his drink.

Let me be clear that he is corrected and reprimanded for the above behaviours. He will stop for a minute or two and then start up again (occasionally won’t).

As an aside he is otherwise a fairly well-behaved child, doing well in school etc.

I just don’t know what to do anymore. I was brought up with strict table manners and I’m glad my DM isn’t around to see DS as she’d make me feel worse than I (we) already do. I know from threads I saw a few years ago that table manners aren’t so important to people anymore but they are to us so please don’t tell me he’s fine for his age because he’s absolutely not ☹️

I honestly think all you can do is persevere - keep modelling good behaviour and correcting him, and then go scream into a pillow in another room. Ds is 11 and seems to have fabulous manners, then regresses and eats with his mouth open or spills things etc. it’s just a process.

That said, the correcting and shouting over you sounds like he can’t cope with shared attention and the focus not being on him. Are you praising him loads when he eats nicely etc? Could poss be that you focussing on the negative means he is getting attention and therefore it’s self perpetuating?

Do you think he may be showing traits of dyspraxia? The messy eating and food ending up everywhere might be part of that?

Some of this sounds like normal 8 year old behaviour. But, sitting at the table he's very much in the spotlight and it sounds like he's feeling a lot of pressure which is causing him to act up a bit.
As pp have said, focus on modelling rather than correcting, and keep things light and pleasant with some distracting 'dinner conversation' games to head any off any silly behavior before it starts.

Urgh. We had a child like that come for play date and eat. Couldn't invite them back for eating again, it was revolting how much clearing up there was after the meal.
Good you're trying to stop him, and I do think some kids find it harder than others (the child who came to us had parents who thought it was fine so weren't even trying to change anything, hence the no repeat invitation).
Maybe focus on one aspect at a time and tell him how you want it to be, all him to think how he might do it and help him remember... Praise for trying, reward for succeeding, appropriate response if not even trying?

Would you pick just one of those things to focus on for now? The sitting at the table and ranting instead of storming off sounds like a win, though it doesn’t feel like it. Maybe now tackle the eating with mouth open, or spilling food. I would certainly make him clean up after himself. Loads of reminder and loads of praise if you catch him doing it well.

Table manners are a lot to learn, some of them physically tricky (knife and fork) and some of the rules are objectively odd (why can't you put elbows on the table, why do we actually care?). That's not to say they can, or should, be ignored but for context it is a lot.

It sounds like your DS is trying - saying please, sitting at the table, reducing his annoyance with the 'wrong' food etc.

Also, some of his difficulties are linked - less practice with knife and fork, because of dislike of hot food, leads to more spills and mess when he does try. I'd suggest picking your battles for now. For example, as long as he's trying with the knife and fork don't worry about the mess, or as long as the food gets into his mouth cleanly and he keeps his mouth closed, don't worry about how it gets there.

Also, think about when you're asking him to practice this. By the evening he's probably hungry (wants to eat faster) and tired (less coordination?) Would breakfast or lunch be a better time?

My friend had the exact same battle with her daughter, she was a nightmare, the chomping, mouth open sounds were the worst.
She improved when she went to secondary school, as other kids remarked on it, even had her in tears a few times, but her table manners are immaculate now.

I'm sorry op but why has he had less experience using a knife and fork for cold meals? Cold meat, salad, quiche, pork pie, etc, all require the use of a knife and fork. Bread and cheese even requires him to butter the bread and cut the cheese. If you serve it with a sliced tomato he surely needs a knife and fork to cut it.

How often do you sit at the table and eat as a family? Do the adults use cutlery properly, napkins properly, serve themselves nicely? What happened at mealtimes when he was still in a high chair. What happens when he runs screaming from the table?

Unless there is some undiagnosed neuro diversity going on, his behaviour is absolutely atrocious. And if there is, there should have been a plan in place and careful modelling for reinforcement years ago.

Thank you to those who gave constructive comments and ideas to try.

@RosesAndHellebores DS doesn’t eat any of the foods you have listed - he is a very fussy eater since 18 months old. NHS doesn’t care - he’s seen a dietician three times (age 4-5) and all she did was lecture him to do as mummy says and eat your fruit & vegetables. NHS Occupational Therapist (age 5) said it’s a behaviour issue rather than sensory and could only suggest giving him Play-Doh to cut up with a knife and fork (didn’t help). He can butter bread and invariably can’t do it evenly.

We have always modelled good, polite behaviour at the table. As I said in my OP, I was brought up with strict table manners and I was roasted for any transgression. I can’t abide seeing children eat like pigs and running around when they should be sitting at the table.

We have been cracking down on this behaviour since it really showed itself around age 4. Believe me, I have tried and tried and even cried many times too. I don’t need anyone telling me my child’s behaviour is ‘atrocious.’ You’ve just made me feel an even worse parent, and I know I’m not otherwise I wouldn’t be posting for advice because I do care.

@Outandup I am sorry you found my post upsetting. I would gently suggest there is something neuro diverse underlying this if there has been consistent role modelling and encouragement.

Regrettably you are likely to have to pay to get the help your son needs. The bar in the NHS is very very high and school won't do anything if your ds is managing.

I always suspected dd was dyspraxic, I didn't suspect ADHD because intellectually she was high functioning despite shocking handwriting. She took longer to master using a knife and fork and tidily and had some aversion to sauce that appeared at about 4.5.

The ADHD was diagnosed when she was 17 and much fell into place. It turned her mental health round. She was formally diagnosed with dyspraxia this year, aged 24 and it's quite severe.

Neither CAMHS nor her primary or secondary acknowledged there could be neuro diverse problems. There were. You have to pay for diagnosis and support - it is simply not there.

What are his fine motor skills like in general? Does he colour/draw? Handwriting? Can he pick up small things like peas/beads and put them in a jar? How about using other tools, with play doh, or baking, cooking etc?

I ask because my DS has dyspraxia and ADHD too. I’m not saying your son has either of these but those were some of the flags and OT suggestions for my son at 8.

In terms of the rudeness, what are the consequences for him butting in or mucking around? Is he removed from the table? I always used a 1,2,3 approach for behaviour - 1, gently correct; 2, firmly correct with warning; 3, consequence.

Also, is he an only child? What’s he like if you take him somewhere like McDonalds, where he can eat with his hands but be praised for any nice table manners, or told he won’t be able to go if he can sit nicely?

We have some of the problems you have outlined with my 7 and 9 year olds. I’m probably not as strict as I should be, as I want to enjoy some parts of my meal rather than having the table as a battlefield every time. I think your point about not using cutlery as much is a valid one - when I was a child we had to eat things like pork chops, boiled potatoes and veg. Nowadays with more pizza, pasta and wraps etc there’s less need for cutlery in the same way. I regret encouraging finger foods and baby led weaning - with hindsight I think this just normalised making a complete mess that someone else would clean up.

I struggled to use a knife and fork, despite being shown, so I have some sympathy. I probably only succeeded at secondary school. I’m not blaming primary schools, but it’s another area where, in my generation, the dinner ladies gave children a right bollocking for poor table manners. I’ve just asked my DC and no one is pulled up for slouching, elbows on table, using fingers etc.

And, yet again, school staff are expected to do the work of parents...

Are you sure he doesn't have sensory issues or dyspraxia? That sounds pretty extreme for an NT child. I only ask because anything I might suggest wouldn't work for a non NT child-you'd need different strategies.

Not really, was just commenting that positive behaviour used to be reinforced in lots of different environments, not only in the home.

@LadyMonicaBaddingham I never expected school staff to do the job of parents. I did however expect school staff to reinforce things like table manners and most other behaviour to the highest common denominator. Too often that wasn't the case. Particularly in the dining hall with dinner ladies shrieking like banshees and trying to force children to clear their plates which has never been helpful in the context of encouraging ordered eating.

Hi op this may sound "woo" but often our dc do something that challenges us.

You were raised with very strict manners around food. Here is your beloved son challenging that to the core.

Are you able to eat outside in summer?

I would totally go against nealry all the advice here and get him out to eat and let him do what he wants. Completly take the problem out of it and stop the battle immediately.

Your all in an extremely toxic and vicious cycle. He wants to feel food, just accept it and let him get it out his system. Don't watch him if it upsets you, don't even eat with him. Don't be reprimanding. Work with him and just let him go.

It doesn't have to be an issue.
Once he's relaxed around food and meal times and you have, ( this will take a good few weeks), gently with very small steps try and bit by bit try again with him but in a fun gentle way.

Eating like this at this age doesn't mean as an adult he will be like this.
He really needs some understanding and freedom.

• oh yes and other very good old advice from here!

Lots of variety on the table, finger food buffet rather than one thing. This helped enormously when my dd was going through a fussy eating stage. Took the battle out lots of little choices.

@RosesAndHellebores

Ridiculous post!

Dc come to things at different times and op has admitted to already having very high standards and she's been cracking down since 4. Which is probably where the problem lies.

It's a little like the teeth battle. People think their dc teeth will fall out if they relax it for one week to realign battle lines and make it fun again.

Many times with dc adults get entrenched with them in the mud.

Stop the battle. Get out of the mud. Look at things from a different pov.

Get creative and clever.

Good luck op.

My son eats like this and has dyspraxia. He makes way more mess than the 4 year old! It's a work in progress with him.

My 11 year old is messier than I’d expect at the table. He also definitely has some issues with eating at a table/under scrutiny.
For example, when very small (eg 3) I took him out for a small pizza, he wouldn’t eat even a bite of it, but wanted to take it home. I think he ate it in the car in the end.
We eat every dinner at the table, but still he tends to eat only about half of it and then says he’s hungry later. He’ll eat his leftovers at that point.
He has two siblings, so it’s not like we’re sitting staring at him.
He’s also pretty fussy about food.

I think there’s a ‘thing’ going on, but no idea what or how to deal with it. Luckily, he behaves perfectly in front of other people, so I haven’t had the urgency in dealing with it. Maybe that’s unfair on him though!

So, no help, but some solidarity.

Do you eat all meals at the table? If not, start doing so. It just makes using cutlery easier and means maximum practice.

If you don't do so already allow self service. For this tongs are often easier.
Can he help in the kitchen with food prep at all? Gives him an opportunity to explore food in a more appropriate environment.

Make things a challenge, start with 10 points and he losses one point each time something falls off the plate. You can then play beat the score between meals.

Is he sitting properly on his chair? Having watched hundreds of children eat its very obvious that many of them aren't sitting square to the table, so when it comes to cutting food and using cutlery they are starting from a compromised position.