If you are an EO within the civil service…

[EObutwheretogo]

...and don’t mind sharing, can I please ask what your day to day tasks are? How heavy you feel your workload is, how much responsibility you feel you have and whether or not you have line management responsibilities?

I’m trying to work out how my job compares to those on the same pay grade within other departments.

This is long, but if you’re interested in what I do, feel free to read on.

I am a clerk of court. My job involves being in the courtroom all day, calling cases, taking court minutes, processing all the relevant paperwork for each case eg. Prison extracts, bail papers, letters to Accused persons etc. My caseload can be anywhere from 20- 60 cases per day, sometimes more depending on the type of hearing. I am not legally qualified, however I need to know the relevant areas of law and advise the judge if asked any questions and ensure any disposals are legally competent.

When not in court I have to be on hand to answer phone, email and in person queries from the public/stakeholders. I have to work quickly as the courts are heavily loaded yet accurately as any mistakes in court paperwork can have severe consequences if anything is incorrect- think wrongful arrests, incorrect sentences being carried out. I feel it’s a considerable level of responsibility. In addition I line manage one other AO.

We have flexitime but can’t really get the benefit as you have to be in the courtroom for a long as the court remains in session which depends on the number of cases and how long they take to get through. Then you have to go back to the office to process all the related admin and can’t leave until it’s all done.

I receive £28k per year

Written down, I’m not sure that it really seems like a lot of work for the money. However I and many of my colleagues feel like we have a heavy workload. I feel like I’m sometimes struggling to get everything done. I worry that I’m going to make a mistake and get a bit stressed out sometimes.

Just wondering how this compares to other EO jobs in the CS?

Obviously I’ve name changed for this as it's seriously outing but I’ve been here for years.

I’m a SEO and don’t line manage or have that level of responsibility. I have a heavy workload but there are many managers above me who check work and would take the flack if something went wrong. I’m on £40k

Wow newmum, that's an eye opener! The SEO in my office line manages 3 HEOs who on turn line manage around 30 EOs between them.

I was in the job a few weeks and had to do an attendance review meeting and issue an informal warning. No training, nothing! Just a case of read the policy and off you go.

I was you! I did that job and I loved it, but it took its toll. I also managed 4 staff, we were a good team but it was relentless. The previous five people in my job had all gone off and left with stress (the judge we worked for was particularly…demanding!). I thought it wouldn’t happen to me, but I was sinking, so I had my doctors number stuck to my phone (you had to ring at 8am) but was so busy by then preparing for court that day I never got to ring it.

The crunch came when me and another clerk were doing our jobs and covering for holidays of team members. Between us we agreed to take two days off, I would go first on the Friday and she would have the Monday. On the Friday I rang her to tell her how lovely it was to be in the outside world. The problem was I emailed my line manager when we finished the night before at 7pm to tell her what we were doing and hoped that was okay. When I returned to work on the Monday my line manager asked for a meeting and basically slapped my wrist for the late notice holiday request. I’ll be honest, I cried, and I don’t do that at work. I realised then that nothing would change, so I would have to. A little while later a promotion in another area (nothing to do with courts) came up and I applied, didn’t want the job, but they gave it to me and I left. Knew as soon as I started I had made a mistake BUT when I had children I was able to go part time, something that would have been impossible in courts, and I ended up with a job in criminal justice policy and legislation and now work in prison and probation service at a higher level and love it. The ability and resilience you are demonstrating goes a long way in other areas.

Speak to your line manager, raise your concerns about workload (make sure you put in writing) and ask them directly what they can put in place to support you. At least then you will know if nothing can change, it may have to be you who makes the change. Good luck.

I’m guessing this isn’t an operational role. I was an SEO with no line management responsibilities in a specialist skills policy role. Operational SEOs in the same department would be managing multiple sites and chains of staff.

Same grade but very different. I was really underpaid for my role relative to the private sector (I left and doubled my salary). And still was just expected to be a technical specialist. management is a different thing.

The CS is a funny place, I'm about to move to a G6 role with no line management and less responsibility than my G7 role! The problem I find with the CS is the more competent you are, the more they throw at you, especially during recruitment freezes etc. They will keep taking advantage until you push back, so if it feels too much do make sure you talk to your management.

I'm no longer a civil servant but when I left, at EO grade, I managed 8 AOs and 4 AAs and had responsibility for thousands of ongoing case files. (immigration)
I left to be a teacher and look back at the halcyon days of the service in terms of free time and money X hour of work.

Im an EO. No line manager responsibility. I am responsible for my managing my own workload and aslong as I reach my very easy to achieve weekly caseworking target no-one hassles me!. I have to say that I really enjoy my job!

No, not operational. I work in Whitehall. There are many G7s with no or little line management either.

Thank you all for the responses. It’s crazy how it varies so wildly from department to department. I do enjoy my job, but just feel that I can’t give everything the attention I think it deserves as I have so much to get through. It worries me as I’m naturally diligent and like to give a lot of attention to detail. I really don’t think that there’s much can be done about it really. The court loadings are decided between those much, much higher up in my organisation and the Crown. They know it’s a lot, it’s widely acknowledged but there’s just so much business to get through.

What you say about the more competent you are the more you get given really resonates namejump - I’m relatively inexperienced at EO level but more senior EOs are given much heavier courts so I know it’s only going to get worse as I progress. Covid backlogs haven’t helped either.

I totally get you Islagiatt about the “demanding” judges. Sometimes managing their egos is a job in itself! Sounds like you’re much better off where you are now!

If we’re talking about workloads Scentof I think teaching is on a completely different level and don’t know how you guys do it. I applaud you!

Likewinter, sounds like you’re living the dream- I’m jealous!

Thanks all for the input, as I say, I do enjoy the job itself but I think I’d like to make the jump to policy in the not too distant future. Just need to keep plugging away and gathering examples of transferable skills with my next application in mind.
Thanks all

my area is the same. Even G6s with minimal management responsibilities.

all grade really tells you is what people are paid. The roles vary enormously.

"all grade really tells you is what people are paid. The roles vary enormously"

Yes, it's really interesting though how there's so much variation. I mean, somebody somewhere had to have decided at one point what jobs were allocated to which grade and there seems to be no cohesion across departments. As someone said upthread the CS is a funny old place!

The grade structure isn't really fit for purpose when it comes to specialisms; you can have security architects, lawyers etc possibly still relatively junior in their own careers but with a very specific set of skills, minimal to no line management or leadership requirements, but you can't be putting them in HEO roles on £30k-ish So you can have young people early on in their careers in the senior grades with seemingly less responsibility, but then operational roles that do rely on excellent people management and leadership skills which can only really be taught over time, years doing so, means those in G7/6 roles in those contexts are likely overseeing large teams with a lot of experience under their belts.

It’s dreadful for specialisms. Put them on G6 with an additional specialist skills allowance and you’re still not close to competing with market rates for lots of stuff. Especially if you want experienced senior people who can deal with the kind of complexity public sector stuff tends to deliver.

So what you get instead is tonnes of contractors and consultants. Costing hundreds and hundreds of pounds a day.

Paying £900+ a day for a senior service designer FT for 9 months because you can’t recruit one at G7 is not great use of public funds.

@SquidwardBound indeed I'm going to be the only CS in a team of contractors, I dread to think what they'll be getting paid vs me!

It’s ridiculous. And it’s not like it’s time limited. They need permanent roles but can’t pay enough through the grade structure so they pay much, much more to contractors and consultancy firms.

In my dept the EOs are either PAs to one single director or front line operational managers managing up to 50 people - we have mostly AOs doing the work, EOs/HEOs we have the least of, SEO is a technical grade and G7 upwards there's a handful.

As a G6 I manage 3 people and I could reduce that down to 1 if I wanted to tidy my teams' structures up a bit. My role is senior leadership operational back office function.

The grade disparity really becomes stark when you compare "thinking" (policy led) departments to "doing" (ops led) departments.

Operational roles have a lot more responsibility compared to policy roles (I'm a G6 and have worked in immigration).

The level of responsibility you get in the operational side of the CS is really quite significant.

What's the progression like to HEO?

The level of responsibility you get in the operational side of the CS is really quite significant.

yes. Remarkably so.

*What's the progression like to HEO
*
Many, many people in my organisation, especially my particular court seem to sit for years and years at EO level. There are people who've been doing the same job for 25-30yrs. However, the progression is there for those who want it and I'd say it's doable within 3-5yrs. The next natural step up would be to office manager. As my court is a large, busy court, there may be 2-3 HEOs per office, responsible for 10-30 EOs each. They are responsible for overseeing the running of the courts, staffing, stats etc. reporting to senior management.
I'm not sure I fancy it to be honest. It looks like a pure headache. Just fighting fires really and taking a lot of grief from the many overworked and disgruntled EOs. They have good intentions but are limited in what they can actually do to improve things as decisions come from much higher up the chain and they just have to implement them as best they can with the resources they have. This is why I'd prefer to go into policy.

Sorry I've just read that back and I've been misleading. I'd say in my court there are 2-3 HEOs per office with 10-30 EOs per office not per HEO!

I'm a band O (EO in old money). No managerial responsibilities, no caseload so no deadlines to worry about. Minimal contact with the general public. Full time assist salary £34k pa.

Sounds magic Skippy! Can I ask if you're in operations or policy?

That is an extreme workload for an EO. I was a band O in HMRC and my job was basically taking calls and admin with no particular time limits. No line management.

I am Grade 7 now in a tax technical role after doing the Tax Specialist programme. Still no line management.

Frankly I would look for HEO jobs in other Govt departments.