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Is this correct police action?

103 replies

FastingFaster · 11/03/2023 07:49

I've had to support a colleague who's messed up this week. He's a big (enormous) teddybear of a man, who utterly heartbroken following a break up, sent too many messages over a 2 week period and twice sat in his car out side her house while sending the messages.

He has accepted a "simple caution" for "Stalking without fear/harm/distress between x and y dates". This is all factual, I have seen the paperwork, which sets out the timeline of events.

There is no suggestion at all that there was any threat or violence and the victim doesn't claim to have been scared of him, but obviously he was a damn nuisance and the behaviour was just not OK.

He accepted the caution without any legal advice (although offered) because he just wanted it over with. Unfortunately, as he works with children, this will impact him forever, no doubt some will say rightly so. It shouldn't prevent him working with children but it will come up and need to be declared/discussed/risk assessed evey time he has a dbs check for a new job.

I wonder if he did the right thing accepting the caution? Police told him he would have been charged and prosecuted if he hadn't, but I wonder? Would it have been considered in the public interest to bring this prosecution? He's guilty of sending some messages and twice sitting outside, but would a court have defined that as stalking when it was over such a short period?

It's good that quick and decisive action was taken, after so long when women were complaining of long term and nasty stalking were ignored, but I do wonder if it's the correct priority when they cant atrend burglaries and street robberies! I'm also a bit shocked at the pressure put on a young man in distress to accept a caution, but no doubt that's my naivety.

Obviously male toxicity against women can't be dismissed and I've got myself into trouble three times this week on just this issue. Once calling out "banter" at work, again objecting to offensive chanting against a female physio at football and by trying to explain that "good" dad's teaching their DDs to be princesses is less helpful than teaching them everything they need to know to never be dependent on a man! So usually, I'd be very much on favour of this behaviour being called out and it's right that he was "spoken to" and it stopped, but is this sensible policing? Would the charge have been made and prosecuted?

He's just ready to learn from it and move on, I'm interested in it as a bit of social commentary on (rightly) changing times.

OP posts:
JellyfishandShells · 11/03/2023 08:45

This gets stranger - how did you, as his employer, get involved with speaking to him about it before the police were involved. Is the victim an employee of yours too ?

whatyoulookingfor · 11/03/2023 08:47

Cautions drop off all DBS after 6 years. Some cautions and spent convictions can become ‘protected’. Once protected, they are ‘filtered’, meaning they won’t be disclosed on standard or enhanced DBS checks.

Filtered cautions and convictions do not appear on a standard or enhanced DBS check. However, they are not ‘removed’ or ‘wiped’ from police records.

If you’re applying for a job or role that involves a standard or enhanced DBS check, cautions and convictions that are filtered won’t be included on results of the check.

In my experience if he hadn't accepted the caution they may have offered a community resolution, or could have been summonsed to court for harassment.

kilos · 11/03/2023 08:47

FourTeaFallOut · 11/03/2023 08:38

Is 'He's an enormous teddy bear' the new 'built like a brick shit house'?

This, I am also very glad things are changing.
Who cares if he if he remorseful, what he did was incredibly wrong. As someone who has been harassed and had to constantly look over my shoulder for fear of being assaulted again, I am glad the police are taking this seriously.
And I know he hasn't assaulted anyone, my ex started off with messages and 'stalking' first.

FastingFaster · 11/03/2023 08:48

JellyfishandShells · 11/03/2023 08:45

This gets stranger - how did you, as his employer, get involved with speaking to him about it before the police were involved. Is the victim an employee of yours too ?

No, but a complaint was made to us at the same time as it was reported to police. His ex felt it was her duty as he works with children and we acted more quickly.

OP posts:
furryfrontbottom · 11/03/2023 08:48

If the police had not intervened, this man might have continued hanging around outside his ex partner's home for months, or he might have stopped within a week, or he might have gone on to murder her. You just don't know.

FastingFaster · 11/03/2023 08:50

kilos · 11/03/2023 08:47

This, I am also very glad things are changing.
Who cares if he if he remorseful, what he did was incredibly wrong. As someone who has been harassed and had to constantly look over my shoulder for fear of being assaulted again, I am glad the police are taking this seriously.
And I know he hasn't assaulted anyone, my ex started off with messages and 'stalking' first.

I do get that, honestly I do. But how long did your ex's behaviour go on? This was all over within 2 weeks of the break up. Haven't we all sent a few ill advised messages when young and heartbroken?

OP posts:
MirabelMax · 11/03/2023 08:53

I don't suppose anyone can tell you if it would have been successfully prosecuted but maybe you can find out if it would have met the threshold for prosecution. That would be down to cps wouldn't it?

I have to say, I hope it would have met the threshold. Its not for the police to decide whether he is a harmless cuddly teddy bear or an intimidatingly large man with a potential for violence. If he's behaved in a way that is defined as stalking then there need to be firm consequences for that.

FastingFaster · 11/03/2023 08:54

furryfrontbottom · 11/03/2023 08:48

If the police had not intervened, this man might have continued hanging around outside his ex partner's home for months, or he might have stopped within a week, or he might have gone on to murder her. You just don't know.

Yes, I agree, but intervening can be "words of advice" and then charge or caution if it continues? Especially as there had been no incidents for a week between the report and the police visit.

OP posts:
kilos · 11/03/2023 08:54

I do get that, honestly I do. But how long did your ex's behaviour go on? This was all over within 2 weeks of the break up. Haven't we all sent a few ill advised messages when young and heartbroken?

Yes, of course we have when we were young, how old is this guy?!

I'm not sure my personal situation is all that relevant but it was over a couple of weeks when I then ended the relationship and then it quickly progressed from sending me messages and turning up at my house to seriously assaulting me.
If the police had taken the messages seriously maybe that wouldn't have happened.

kilos · 11/03/2023 08:56

furryfrontbottom · 11/03/2023 08:48

If the police had not intervened, this man might have continued hanging around outside his ex partner's home for months, or he might have stopped within a week, or he might have gone on to murder her. You just don't know.

This is so true.

Justmeandthedog1 · 11/03/2023 08:57

Whether a prosecution would be successful or not isn’t relevant.
The caution was aimed at him looking at his behaviour, seeing how wrong it was, admitting that and agreeing to not repeat it. If he has learnt that his behaviour was wrong, job done.

isitanywondernow · 11/03/2023 09:00

Are you sure he got a caution and not a warning?

Usually police will offer to give the person a warning and then after that will take action if it's breached (that's what happened when I reported my harasser - I didn't want them to have an official caution, the police just phoned them up and told them to pack it in).

Sounds like if it was a caution the victim was keen for him to be prosecuted so maybe it's worse than you think it was?

DaveSpondoolix · 11/03/2023 09:03

He made so many choices over 14 days. There were so many opportunities for him to stop himself.
He thought about messaging.
He wrote the message.
He sent the message.
He thought about getting in his car to sit outside her house.
He got in his car.
He switched the engine on and drove there and parked up.
Multiple times.

The police action wasn't just to stop the current episode of this behaviour. It was to emphasise how wrong it is and as a punishment for what he chose to do over and over again.

You are minimising. Every man who commits a crime against a woman is loved and liked by other people. Your colleague/employee/mate isn't special or an outlier. He's one of the men we need to be scared of.

isitanywondernow · 11/03/2023 09:05

"He's guilty of sending some messages and twice sitting outside, but would a court have defined that as stalking when it was over such a short period?"

In answer to this question, it meets the criteria for pursuing a course of conduct amounting to harassment. A course of conduct is more than one incident, you've detailed several. Have you seen the messages?

FastingFaster · 11/03/2023 09:06

isitanywondernow · 11/03/2023 09:00

Are you sure he got a caution and not a warning?

Usually police will offer to give the person a warning and then after that will take action if it's breached (that's what happened when I reported my harasser - I didn't want them to have an official caution, the police just phoned them up and told them to pack it in).

Sounds like if it was a caution the victim was keen for him to be prosecuted so maybe it's worse than you think it was?

Yes, the paperwork says "simple caution".

OP posts:
EmptyPlaces · 11/03/2023 09:06

The thing is, it won’t have been just “a few”. It’ll have been hundreds or thousands, through various means (text, social media platforms, emails), likely calls too. And whilst sat outside her home, which raises the danger. The content of the messages is important too, and I’m guessing that isn’t included in the caution.

FastingFaster · 11/03/2023 09:07

isitanywondernow · 11/03/2023 09:05

"He's guilty of sending some messages and twice sitting outside, but would a court have defined that as stalking when it was over such a short period?"

In answer to this question, it meets the criteria for pursuing a course of conduct amounting to harassment. A course of conduct is more than one incident, you've detailed several. Have you seen the messages?

No, but I've seen how they're described in the police paperwork. They're apologies and promises to try harder to be the man she wants, if she gives him a second chance.

OP posts:
FastingFaster · 11/03/2023 09:08

EmptyPlaces · 11/03/2023 09:06

The thing is, it won’t have been just “a few”. It’ll have been hundreds or thousands, through various means (text, social media platforms, emails), likely calls too. And whilst sat outside her home, which raises the danger. The content of the messages is important too, and I’m guessing that isn’t included in the caution.

According to the police paperwork it was 57 over 13 days.

OP posts:
YetMoreNewBeginnings · 11/03/2023 09:08

FastingFaster · 11/03/2023 09:07

No, but I've seen how they're described in the police paperwork. They're apologies and promises to try harder to be the man she wants, if she gives him a second chance.

You’re minimising again.

It doesn’t matter the content of the messages. He was harassing his ex.

FastingFaster · 11/03/2023 09:09

I was asked the question and replied factually.

OP posts:
YetMoreNewBeginnings · 11/03/2023 09:11

This is one of the biggest issues women face.

Other women are all for sharp action and dealing with things quickly - right up until the man involved is their friend, relative or colleague.

Then it’s harsh and unfair treatment and they were “just…” and meant well.

Phonemonkey2023 · 11/03/2023 09:11

I’m pretty sure my ex is seen as a ‘nice guy’ by his employer- but that is a mask, he’s a very controlling selfish man who went on to have a restraining order from another ex partner.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 11/03/2023 09:12

You wouldn’t be the 🧸, would you, OP? Because you seem to be very invested in this.

GoodChat · 11/03/2023 09:16

Let's be honest, no he probably wouldn't have been charged and given a criminal record if he'd refused the caution - because the legal system is shit at protecting women and the CPS only cares about the easy wins.

The police did very well in giving him the caution. Well done to them.

Dbank · 11/03/2023 09:21

I'm no lawyer, but I doubt the CPS would have pressed charges, which is probably why the police went for a caution, either way too late now.

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