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Id cards.

76 replies

thimblewomble879 · 23/02/2023 07:01

I have to say. I'm in favour of them. I know there are worries about big brother and id. But

I worked jn retail banking for years. I saw first hand the issues people had everyday with valid id. I regulatory told people to apply for a passport (even if they didn't travel) as it was "fairly good value"for a ten year id.

I have also lived in several European countries and id cards where standard and no one raised an eyebrow.

OP posts:
EmmaEmerald · 23/02/2023 12:37

DisplayPurposesOnly · 23/02/2023 11:52

I regulatory told people to apply for a passport (even if they didn't travel) as it was "fairly good value"for a ten year id.

A citizen card is only £15:
www.citizencard.com/

No one accepts it though?

mum is 84 and looking at renewing her passport purely as an ID document. Especially important as she came here as an immigrant.

thimblewomble879 · 23/02/2023 13:34

The best advice I used to be able to give people was to get on the voters register and apply for a passport. Both take time though.

OP posts:
MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 23/02/2023 13:40

tommika · 23/02/2023 12:33

@MrsDanversGlidesAgain
@Brefugee
@EmmaEmerald

The consultation isn’t about sharing all information such as tax affairs

It will remain that different departments hold relevant information for that department and that information shared will be the ‘minimum number of data items, known as attributes, necessary for verifying the identity of an individual’

The sharing of relevant parts of the data held

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/draft-legislation-to-help-more-people-prove-their-identity-online/consultation-on-draft-legislation-to-support-identity-verification

What data will be processed?
Public authorities will process the minimum number of data items, known as attributes, necessary for verifying the identity of an individual. Examples of attributes include:
^^
user’s full name;
date of birth;
home address;
email address;
photographic images;
various identifiers such as passport number or driving licence number;
attributes held by government departments necessary for verifying the identity of an individual;
the outcome of identity checks previously performed on a user; and
transactional data, for example, income

Bless. Ever heard of mission creep and 'yes, we know we SAID we wouldn't do this or need this info but you know, national security etc etc...you want to be safe from terrorism, don't you?'

PinkSparklyPussyCat · 23/02/2023 13:42

email address;

Why would they need that? Do they seriously expect people to let the government know if they change their email address?

I'm no totally against it, but I would be against having to carry it all the time. I rarely carry a bag so would have nowhere to keep the stupid thing for a start! I would also be against having a digital card on my phone. It was bad enough with them banging on about having the covid app downloaded!

SerendipityJane · 23/02/2023 13:47

Why would they need that? Do they seriously expect people to let the government know if they change their email address?

It was very much a serious part of the previous ID card scheme.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 23/02/2023 13:51

another German here. The German forestry commision knows zip about my tax affairs. What a bizarre assertion

There was a long list of organisations (trying to find it online) who had asked for access to the proposed database and by extension people's details in 2006. Forestry Commission was one that stuck in my mind. More details on it here

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006

IIRC it was also suggested that certain people such as MPs and 'celebrities' could opt out of being on the database - so it would end up being all the plebs who had their lives scrutinised. There was a lot of opposition at the time and this post on a now defunct site pretty much sums it up

I've no idea what the vote was. But the number of the libertarians is irrelevant to how ridiculous the philosophy is.

That's not the issue. The Lords has repeatedly tried to call this government to account over this scheme, something that hasn't taken place in the other place, and repeatedly they've been overruled and ignored. The very real questions posed by their lordships have been swept under the carpet, and their objections spun as the ranting of "libertarians" or "airy-fairies".

There's a very real principle here, and it's not a soley "libertarian" agenda. That principle is about the relationship between citizens and government. As a citizen, I hold a fundamental belief in my right to privacy and freedom. I do not think we live by "government permission", and that we are the servants of the government - if anything, the government should be our servant. And it should certainly not be a function of our government to engage in blanket surveillance of law abiding citizens, or to instigate compulsory mechanisms of identification, or to keep monolithic files on each and every citizen, or to criminalise people who refuse to comply. It's simply not their business.

Sure, there's a balance to be made all the time between individual freedom and privacy, and the overall safety and security of society as a whole. But this balance requires constant vigilance from us, each and every time out freedoms are curtailed by those in power. We must be prepared to challenge those violations of our freedom and privacy each and every time they are proposed, and the problem with the NIR is that it basically gives a blank cheque to this and every future government to do what they want with those freedoms and privacy without the required level of scrutiny. Currently, it appears that only the Lords are carrying out any scrutiny at all, and the response from the government reeks to high heaven - it's almost as if they really do have something to hide.

Everything else - the fact that it won't prevent terrorism, or crime (in fact, it'll probably just create more crime), or benefit fraud, or tax evasion, the amount it'll cost, the inconvenience of being turned into a number and all the other problems - is secondary to my fundamental objection to this proposal. By default, I'm in favour of freedom and privacy, and suspicious of any attempt by vested government or corporate interests to restrict that freedom and privacy for their own ends. You call that "libertarianism". I call it democracy.

SerendipityJane · 23/02/2023 13:54

I'm no totally against it, but I would be against having to carry it all the time.

The gold standard of what you would call a free country is the right to pass unmolested by the state along the public highway. The moment you create a mandatory ID card, you also have to create the law that allows the police (or anybody else the government feels like deputising) the power to stop you - "Papers please". (I suspect the "please" wouldn't last too long either).

Otherwise what would be the point ?

Obviously once you have that in place, you may as well check someones immigration status. And why not their benefits history. After all, if they are claiming ESA, but able to pop out for some milk (did I mention that they'd also end up asking what you are doing ?) then surely you are well enough to work.

And so on.

And so on.

This isn't hyperbole but history.

The only reason I'm as relaxed as I am is because there is no way on Gods Green Earth the past few governments could have run a whelk stall, let alone a bad ID card scheme. Look at the clusterfuck that UC is. And that is a mere subset of the population.

MokaEfti · 23/02/2023 13:56

I am completely against ID cards

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 23/02/2023 13:57

The only reason I'm as relaxed as I am is because there is no way on Gods Green Earth the past few governments could have run a whelk stall, let alone a bad ID card scheme. Look at the clusterfuck that UC is. And that is a mere subset of the population

I said this during covid when SM was frothing about a social credit scheme along the lines of China - just google 'failed government IT projects' (and weep at the amount of your money gone down the drain).

EmmaEmerald · 23/02/2023 14:03

SerendipityJane · 23/02/2023 13:54

I'm no totally against it, but I would be against having to carry it all the time.

The gold standard of what you would call a free country is the right to pass unmolested by the state along the public highway. The moment you create a mandatory ID card, you also have to create the law that allows the police (or anybody else the government feels like deputising) the power to stop you - "Papers please". (I suspect the "please" wouldn't last too long either).

Otherwise what would be the point ?

Obviously once you have that in place, you may as well check someones immigration status. And why not their benefits history. After all, if they are claiming ESA, but able to pop out for some milk (did I mention that they'd also end up asking what you are doing ?) then surely you are well enough to work.

And so on.

And so on.

This isn't hyperbole but history.

The only reason I'm as relaxed as I am is because there is no way on Gods Green Earth the past few governments could have run a whelk stall, let alone a bad ID card scheme. Look at the clusterfuck that UC is. And that is a mere subset of the population.

That's the worry though

they will create it and chaos will ensue, with our personal info.

MissAmbrosia · 23/02/2023 14:11

I live abroad and have one I have to carry. I find it no problem at all. I like that I have to prove where I live and that I have access to employment, benefits and medical treatment. If I move house, my new address is automatically updated to all relevant depts/companies. I can use it to access my health and pension records. If I see a doctor they can load a prescription on it. If I buy a public transport pass they can see what discount I might be entitled to and upload a photo. I can give my accountant a DOA to access my tax records. I can use it to vote. I can use it to travel within Schengen without needing a passport.

SerendipityJane · 23/02/2023 14:12

they will create it and chaos will ensue, with our personal info.

Those of us old enough will remember the mob invading Stasi headquarters in Berlin and destroying the records. Sort of around about the time the Ceausescu's were dragged from their palace and shot. (And then shot again for the cameras).

The two events not necessarily being unentangled ....

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 23/02/2023 14:19

I like that I have to prove where I live

Why? why do you actually like that something that is no-one else's business is something that you have to prove??

In other words, going by the rest of your post, people you don't know and can't (presumably) call to account can build up a very good idea of you and your life by accessing details that a lot of us (IMV quite rightly) want to keep private and you think that's good? again, why?

GloomyDarkness · 23/02/2023 14:25

I do not drive so increasingly my passport is being used as ID.

I even need photo ID to pick up prescriptions from GP - which is odd but they are strict with.

So another readily accepted ID would be useful to me but I suppose like many systems the devil would be in the detail.

MissAmbrosia · 23/02/2023 14:26

People can't access all your information though. Why is it BAD to prove where you live? Would solve any number of problems imho.

MissAmbrosia · 23/02/2023 14:28

Thought of another - if you buy e.g a washing machine, the warranty is also uploaded to your ID. I think the big issue in the UK is that they are bloody useless at building the infrastructure to manage this, and would probably like to now opt out of GDPR legislation. But to me, that is the problem, and not the ID cards themselves.

DorisParchment · 23/02/2023 14:31

I don’t have a problem with it, but I live in mainland Europe and have had an ID card since I was 21. Your passport and driving licence are already linked in U.K. anyway. If your photo card needs updating they use your passport photo.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 23/02/2023 14:31

MissAmbrosia · 23/02/2023 14:26

People can't access all your information though. Why is it BAD to prove where you live? Would solve any number of problems imho.

If I need to prove where I live for specific reasons (doctor's catchment area, say) then fine. As a general principle - nope, I don't have to prove where I live just because you're asking me. Never ceases to amaze me the amount of private info people disclose just because someone official looking asks for it.

What problems would it solve?

Ponderingwindow · 23/02/2023 14:32

I don’t really understand why people are more concerned with having a government id than they are with the fact that there is a private credit agencies tracking them and making life impacting decisions for them.

SerendipityJane · 23/02/2023 14:35

MissAmbrosia · 23/02/2023 14:26

People can't access all your information though. Why is it BAD to prove where you live? Would solve any number of problems imho.

It would certain solve the problem of a creepy policeman not being able to find out your address, wouldn't it ?

No amount of gaslighting by any government of any stripe is ever going to force me to trust them more that is absolutely essential. And when governments of all and any stripe start introducing measures that require you trust them, I trust them even less.

EmmaEmerald · 23/02/2023 14:40

Ponderingwindow · 23/02/2023 14:32

I don’t really understand why people are more concerned with having a government id than they are with the fact that there is a private credit agencies tracking them and making life impacting decisions for them.

But many of us are concerned about both? It's all part of the same problem.

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 23/02/2023 14:41

SerendipityJane · 23/02/2023 14:35

It would certain solve the problem of a creepy policeman not being able to find out your address, wouldn't it ?

No amount of gaslighting by any government of any stripe is ever going to force me to trust them more that is absolutely essential. And when governments of all and any stripe start introducing measures that require you trust them, I trust them even less.

100%. Also, we have at the moment a benign government (if incompetent). What about 10, 20, 30 years down the line when the govt might be less benign?

parkerhiggins.net/2012/06/bad-civic-hygiene/

EmmaEmerald · 23/02/2023 14:42

I'm old enough to have campaigned against Oystercards...I told a 22 year old that and he backed off from his aggressive "your generation let this happen" stance and admitted that I can call myself a long term campaigner!

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 23/02/2023 14:44

EmmaEmerald · 23/02/2023 14:42

I'm old enough to have campaigned against Oystercards...I told a 22 year old that and he backed off from his aggressive "your generation let this happen" stance and admitted that I can call myself a long term campaigner!

I have an Oystercard (unregistered). Where I travel is none of TFL's business.

EmmaEmerald · 23/02/2023 14:45

MrsDanversGlidesAgain · 23/02/2023 14:44

I have an Oystercard (unregistered). Where I travel is none of TFL's business.

How do you top up please? Many stations aren't taking cash now.