Staff shortages - why?

[Buttalapasta]

I've just read the thread on pharmacist shortages. My mum's GP practice has cut its opening hours due to shortages and the local pub now closes at 9 for the same reason! Why? I know Brexit had some impact but surely not this much? Is it down to poor wages? Early retirement? It seems strange that so many places can't seem to get staff yet they aren't offering higher wages? Any economists know?

Benefits are NOT too high. Wages are too low! That's the problem.

@Mistletoewench @DangerNoodles Totally agree with you both. It also makes it impossible to know when to book things like doctors appointments. You cant plan anything.

All well and good but the over 50's I know are struggling to find work, can't even get an interview for jobs they are very well trained and skilled up, for with years of experience.
Also, what 50+ person is going to want to work long shifts in a physical job? Eg Doctors, nurses, carers, even retail staff, very few of whom are allowed to sit down even when on the till. I couldn't do it.

PP whose DH is asked about medication at interviews. I’m sure that’s totally illegal. Are you in the UK?

i just know with companies that they will want to capitalise on the skills an knowledge of the older workforce, but pay them pittance. Like they are doing them a favour or something by giving them a job

We are in the UK. There are some jobs where it is legal to ask about medication (those that require mandatory drug testing, operating machinery, etc). There are also jobs that DP is not allowed by law to do.

@BungleandGeorge

(Regarding the recruitment of semi- and unqualified overseas staff into the NHS)- You replied:

"This is an issue for the professional body though. They are responsible for ensuring those registering are at the same standard as the UK. So what’s going wrong? There are certainly overseas pharmacy/ medical degrees that aren’t recognised in this country. Is this an issue with rcn/ hcpc?"

I genuinely believe the HCPC have been told to not check too deeply because the govt KNOW that without these overseas workers, however poor they are, the NHS would collapse.

Of course, a predictable but probably not-considered side effect is the resultant haemorrhaging of your good, UK trained staff as they increasingly fear for their own state registrations if they get associated with some of the poor and/or negligent practice they see around them at work in an ever more rushed, understaffed and poorly managed environment. It's really stressful; and if you whistleblow, the R word is raised.

Don't vote Tory.

Employers expecting people to be available at random times instead of shift patterns

Its asking people to be ON CALL. Asking your employee to keep themselves available just in case IS asking them to be on call. So they should pay them to be on call. But we all know why this is dont we. Class. Professional higher status employees get paid for being on call. Those on lower incomes should be paid for being on call too.

We seem to mostly agree with some differing experiences. But what to do about it. I' certainly like to see an end to the complaints culture and the bad behaviour of "the public". My own job - I got three complaints last week. People I'd bent over backwards for, given my own time to help, really done my best. But in the end I couldn't give them what they believed they were entitled to.

Apparently I was stupid, incapable of understanding basic English, unhelpful, a liar, deliberately stopping them getting what they wanted.

What I'd like to see is those people banned from whatever service or shop they're screaming about. But no - I say "I'm sorry you feel that way" "I can understand your frustration" etc.. We raise a complaint, my manager spends hours of her precious time "investigating". And if rude Mr X doesn't like her response it goes up the chain. Meanwhile the queues get longer... I'll give up before too long - it's really not worth it.

It's not even just on call. They can say they want to employ you for 12 hours a week but one week they want you to work all day Saturday and Sunday lunchtime. The next week they expect you in Tuesday, Thursday and Friday evenings. Most people will have other commitments at certain times that they can't miss so prefer set hours, maybe with the possibility of overtime.

Doginayent. yes I get that but she was working permanent nights. Members of her team refused point blank to pick up these hours, preferring days. The point I’m making is often vacancies could be filled if employers thought outside the box.
I completely agree with you if someone is choosing ‘the best hours’ but often this isn’t the case.

Can only speak from personal experience but I'm leaving a clinical position within the NHS because I cannot, with good faith, continue to serve a crumbling system which is designed to keep people dependant upon it rather than enabling and encouraging independence. People deserve better.

Also can I just add in a factor which I don’t think has been mentioned. “Covid free” ward in early days. 6 very skilled experienced nurses in contact with 1 patient. Dodgy PPE. 3 nurses a bit unwell for a couple of days. 1 didn’t make it. 2 of us still with long covid - my friend is bedbound. I am working 3 hr shifts twice a week with nhs direct. So the ward has lost half of its nurses inc 2 of the key staff involved in all the training. Multiply that up over all the frontline NHS, take away the EU staff and it’s easy to see why those left are looking for a way out.

unfortunately that “way out” has come for a lot of people - mix of covid plus lack of early intervention / delays in treatment. A number of my friends aged 50+ have now inherited from parents / received spouses life insurance etc - “basic” house here is over £300k - more than enough to fund early retirement.

Permanent night shift has such adverse affects on employee health she'd be better on a rotating shift.

The problem with expecting employers to think outside the box to accommodate employee whims is that you quickly end up in the position where you've 30 employees on 20 different contracts, and your competency matrix is a mess because 5 won't do that, 5 won't do this, and 5 are only competent to do one thing. It's never just one person you have to accommodate.

As far as i'm aware, the Govt is so desperate for nurses, they are taking them from anywhere.. Kenya where they have their own shortages and Nepal where the UN has designated that country as off limits to 1st world countries... UK of course found a way around that.

EU had the same training standards as UK, we had too as a member.

I don't think the Governing bodies have a say...

www.nursingtimes.net/news/global-nursing/uk-to-recruit-nurses-from-nepal-under-new-government-deal-23-08-2022/

I work in a non-departmental public body. Supposed to be a team of 6 people at the grade below me. Currently got 3. One of our vacancies we've been advertising on and off for 2.5yr. Almost no applicants, at all. We had one this time and they were terrible. Being a ndpb we have no discretion over the pay. Can't compete with private sector.

Brexit had a massive impact - 6 doctors I know personally have left. So times that by....

And...covid. lots of people think life is too short and are choosing to work part time or have mixed careers.

And Australia likes British trained doctors and pharmacists....

unfortunately that “way out” has come for a lot of people - mix of covid plus lack of early intervention / delays in treatment. A number of my friends aged 50+ have now inherited from parents / received spouses life insurance etc - “basic” house here is over £300k - more than enough to fund early retirement

This is why a lot of older teachers left. Kids don’t spread it after all. Just open a few windows🙄

Huge lack of social workers currently. Who'd struggle on £35k when you can get £80k via agency work.

Our place is looking for new dental nurses and struggling
newbies are now required to go to college/ online training and this is compulsory- didn’t use to be And all for just over nmw.

my boss can’t offer more as a he can’t afford it ( all our nurses would want a pay rise as well).
historically dental nursing was learnt ‘on the job’ by school leavers who did it for a few years before moving on to something else Now they are required to be qualified and registered. Which isn’t a bad thing but makes it difficult to recruit as lots of otherwise capeable people are unwilling or unable to study

besides they’d earn more in a supermarket

Yes, this.

Benefits are not too high. It does pay to work.
I am on UC, and am in the too sick to work group. My take home is less than £700 a month.
Someone who is working and earning that, will get a top up.
It is nuts that I am expected to live off less than £700 a month with no prospect to increase that, but someone who is working and earning more, can get that amount topped up even more.

Our local NHS is a mess, I worked several shifts over Christmas and New year to cover staff shortages (non clinical now), we also covered ward housekeeping because they had no one to cover lunches for patients, that wouldn’t be our usual role however we all want patient care so chipped in, we are still waiting to be paid, so we are now all refusing to make up the shortfall.

I’m in my 50s. I had been working for a major company for decades until Covid struck, but ended up taking voluntary redundancy when the government allowed them to practically force us onto an inferior contract and pay. I then worked in a local coffee shop/bar, but was on minimum wage and not treated very well, so I left. We ve since set up my own little coffee shop. It doesn’t make much, probably not much over minimum wage, but at least I’m in charge of my own hours/days off! I’m lucky in that at this age the mortgage is almost paid and I’ve some inheritance looming which means I hopefully won’t have to work a proper job again.

One thing I’ve been pondering on lately though - as the government allows wages and conditions to decline for many people it will mean that many workers are barely paying any tax. So how is that going to work for the country in the long term??

What’s interesting is that even shit NMW jobs can be great if the perks balance the poor money.
I gave up teaching and work for a tutoring company Mon - Fri.
The weekends I work at a supermarket. It was the job I got to tide me over when I quit teaching but before I found another income. I’ve kept it on because it’s so low stress I don’t even think of it as work.

The work is autonomous.No one over your shoulder. Breaks are when I decide it’s time in my shift ( no rebukes because its lunchtime and I needed a wee but also have to be on the field for break duty the exact minute I finish my lesson). Food and tea /coffee/ squash/ chocolate/ soup is free at break time and I can sit down for all of it . I clock in and out so I don’t have to tell everyone how late I’m staying to justify my being there. If I’m late because of traffic I stay late. No one cares. It’s a revelation.
Basically plenty of companies could offer NMW and employ loyal, hardworking staff they listened to what works for employees.

@Honeyroar
One thing I’ve been pondering on lately though - as the government allows wages and conditions to decline for many people it will mean that many workers are barely paying any tax. So how is that going to work for the country in the long term??

It doesn't... one reason why the Govt should pay the public sector workers more, a great deal of what they will earn will go back into the economy, it also doesn't feed inflation as schools nhs don't charge for their services.