'Proud' to be working class?

[RosemaryMoocher]

I am British but grew up overseas. I admit to having lived in a bit of a bubble, so please forgive my ignorance.

When reading online I often notice the phrase 'working class (and proud)' but rarely from those who identify as middle, upper and so on. I do not hear this spoken in everyday life as often as I see it online. Is there a history to this?

Does it refer to pride in terms of achievement or is it a response to being marginalised, historically? I have often sensed a kind of middle class guilt (can't think of a more appropriate word), which champions and defends the working class whilst the sentiment doesn't seem to be returned in the opposite direction. I am not sure if it is political as much as it is cultural. I would like to understand it a little more?

For a start, it's assumed that everyone's kids will go to uni.

That is depressing. I live in a fairly small but diverse place with a mix of people, this isn't obvious on the surface but I see what you mean. I find it difficult to imagine someone as embarrassing unless they are deeply unpleasant. To find someone else's social status embarrassing says more about the one judging. I would suggest they might not be very secure in their own self perception.

So to clarify, when someone says they are proud to be working class, it is a defence against perceptions from other social groups?

Quite possibly! If I’m ‘embarrassing’ because my manners, or speech, or cultural capital don’t match the group signifiers of the middle classes then saying ‘I’m proud to be working class’ might neutralise the pain somewhat.

(Not that I use or hear that phrase very often…)

And that's a strange one isn't it, as the 'educated' would believe, or like to believe that they were more civilised and above that. Perhaps perceived notions of class and education could do with an update!

I only see the phrase online really. Forums such as MN and Reddit for instance. On the other hand I have certainly heard friends and associates complain that the middle class is shrinking - not so much in size or economy but rather culturally (tastes and so on), and that there is a growing anti-intellectual storm brewing. A lot of different perspectives about!

I think class is an interesting discussion. In real,life it is not discussed much because no one wants to cause offence and it can be a sensitive subject.

what I find curious is people on here giving their own definition to class.

the dictionary definitions are easy. Working class is unskilled Labour working for a wage, middle is skilled/higher educated worker paid a salary and so on.

but some folks seem to think it’s about your mum and dad for some reason. as if the uk has a rigid caste system in place, it doesn’t.

it seems a lack of understanding of social mobility. Even though it’s a key target of successive governments and heavily in the media often, many people don’t grasp what it is . But it’s not one’s own class that’s linked to the parent, but the chances of social mobility,

So class has clear definitions, but many people try to redefine it to suit themselves . the uk class system is not a rigid caste system it is much more flexible, but social mobility can be hard to achieve, as said that is what is linked to parents situation and that’s why it’s a governmental focus, to ensure those from unprivileged up bringing have similar opportunities as those who come from a more privileged up brining ie access to education

this article explains it well

greatbritishmag.co.uk/uk-culture/what-is-the-british-class-system/

and here is one on social mobility

www.oecd.org/stories/social-mobility/

Thank you for the links, and a great comment, class discussion does seem to be a bit incendiary, and it is difficult to find a reasoned discussion involving perceptions and history that don't become bogged down in arguments and egotistical posturing.

It fascinates me because I don't seem to sit anywhere, although I quite like the idea of not fitting into it. Income inequality is known to be rife here, as opposed to, say, Denmark. I do sense a lot of tension in the UK and politics tends to use and abuse it, rather than soothe it. It is a shame.

Socio economic groupings are used in all manner of research to try and obtain grants, funding and for policy making. I did research on socio economic groups and educational outcomes when I was at University. So whilst it’s very much based on occupation there are many mannerisms and give aways to peoples backgrounds and the way they have been raised

I was raised with very little money, straddled between two cultures, not white and I sound a little like a BBC presenter of old with an RP accent. My cultural heritage is complex and I had a childhood in poverty but both parents were from what would be perceived as middle class within their own countries. I struggle to fully comprehend what went on in my Fathers country of origin, all I know is millions died.

I ended up marrying my white DH who was from a long established old money land owning middle class English family.

I grew up on a notoriously rough London council estate. My Dad was a builder and my Mum did cleaning and other part time jobs. My grandparents were dirt poor from mining villages in the north. My Nan came south in depression for work and went into service.

My background is working class.

Now we live in an affluent country village and have 'modern professional' jobs. I'd describe our lifestyle as middle class.

We have (had) a local friend that I described in passing as 'middle class', and this friend went into utter meltdown because she trained as a nurse and still pays her union dues and is still working class so far as she's concerned.

I pointed out to her that her husband is a company director for a medium sized company and that rather than work, she lunches with her chums and I've seen her sitting outside café's eating olives and sipping red wine with those chums at lunchtime on several occasions. In the 20 years I've known her, she's never been out to work once.

She doesn't speak to me anymore. Can you be working class if you can afford not to work?

Forgive me but how does this relate to my OP though? It says nothing of working class perceptions or what we define as pride.
It only tells me of your apparent 'success' story within the British class system. I mean no offence but would prefer to focus on the broader issue than how many MNers married into money.
However, your specific history, like that all of us, is important, and I respect and appreciate that.

I'm not a historian, so don't know loads about the evolution of this relationship, but if you look at the current situation, there is very limited social mobility. There's an easily findable document on this called Elitist Britain. Primarily, I think it's about money, but there is more to it than that. Different class groupings have slightly different cultures, social norms etc.

Many working class areas had strong communities with their own cultures and tradtions. Mining communities had their own social focus and community activities such as bands and sports clubs which had their own rich culture distinct from other classes, but still worthy of pride.

I see working class pride as valuing and looking after what you have.

Those communities have often been fractured by industrial change, and changes to housing stock (slum clearance, high rise developments, gentrification pushing people out of previously affordable neighbourhoods and migration patterns). Many areas that tend to be poor/ working class now were previously middle class areas of larger houses that became HMOs as the suburbs spread and properties aged, or mid-20th century developments, rather than always being working class.

Well, what's the opposite - working class and ashamed?

OP, thanks for starting this thread, it should provoke a lot of debate. I am in my mid-sixties now. I lived on a council estate with my nan and mum, who worked in various retail and cleaning jobs to provide for us. The estate we lived on certainly had its fair share of problems and parts of it were considered to be 'rough'.

Back then being 'working class' and 'proud' was a bit like cleaning your windows regularly, having clean curtains which hung neatly at the windows, nicely kept gardens, as opposed to old cars up on bricks in the front garden, torn sloppy curtians and bonfires. My mum...nan had passed away by then..was certainly 'proud' when I went off to do nurse training.

But now I think that that sentiment has changed somewhat. So a skilled tradesman is highly likely to be earning about 3 times as much as, say, a teacher who has had a university education and likely to have had a middle-class upbringing. So our hypothetical tradesman is 'working class and proud' because he can afford a nice house in a posh area, a fast car, designer clothes and the like.

When I married, I was propelled into the middle-class diaspora. OH comes from a family of professionals, but I found that lifestyle so cold. compared to my previous one. There was no joking, no listening to Radio 1 or 2, but if you did listen, in no way must you disclose that heinous sin to ANYONE🙀

I remember Christmas mornings as a teenager, with the neighbours coming round for sherry, mince pies, and snowballs. Everyone was friendly and looked out for each other. I really miss that.😥

Trades people cannot be lumped together. many trades are not working class, electrician, plumber etc, they are middle class as it’s skilled labour. As is the teacher. Other trades would be working class, for example a painter could he argued as a semi skilled role.

These are excellent replies, thank you for sharing. It certainly is a fascinating debate, especially when it isn't just about personal posturing.

I do wonder though, if anyone ever admits to beginning middle class and becoming working class. Not something that get's trotted out often!

I do have an extended family member who married into a working class family and came to love and adopt very different values to her immediate/birth family. She is still the same now after 40 years and quite happy. I suppose she found a place where her personal values were a match?. This might beg the question of how much is nature or nurture, too.

We buy the majority of stuff second hand, watching the heating bill (currently the boiler is switched off from 8pm to about 5pm to reduce the bill down), buy from the discount bins at the supermarket and we haven't (with 5 dc the youngest being mid teens) yet had a holiday over £1k for a week.
I think we're pretty safe middle class though. My df was lower working class, but I think he'd agree he's middle now.

My observation is a good number of people who say they're proudly working class are really middle class in terms of assets/jobs etc.

@pocketvenuss

Spending less than £5k on a holiday doesn't make someone 'on the lower end of the socioeconomic ladder' fgs 😂

I use the analogy of the famous Ikea '
'Billy Bookcase'.

Middle-class - full of various books

Working-class - full of DVDs. 😆

Who needs dvds when you can illegally stream everything these days?

Quite. bit behind the times here......😯

Would you rather be a musician or a writer though?

We’re not allowed to say middle class and proud. We would be shot down simply because we are privileged.

There are numerous definitions of class nowadays.

OP help us out what do you mean by "middle class"? Income, reading subjects, educational level, leisure pursuits?

58% of the population of the UK are classed or define themselves as middle class. It's largely based on income.

So if you are a trade, earn 100k a year, but enjoy pies and football in the pub at a weekend are you more or less middle class than say a teacher earning 40k a year but visit national trust gardens and has scones and tea at a weekend? Who is "more" middle class?

I'm trying to point out it's a load of nonsense.

There are fun people and arsehole people scattered throughout the income and "class" sections of society.