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Original poster

Letby Case (part 2)

990 replies

OneFrenchEgg · 26/11/2022 08:14

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4652340-lucy-letby-court-case?reply=121815754

follow up, remember rules around discussion of active cases

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17
Fourteenhouses · 23/05/2023 12:17

PearWhere · 23/05/2023 10:51

Agree with Prevmidwife that for such a lot of charges and long case there is a lot of seemingly irrelevant detail that grabs headlines and not as much medical as I would expect.

I know a lot can't be reported such as names and some medical details as they are identifying which makes it hard to know what the jury will have been told.

For example one baby's blood disorder can't be reported and that could be any number of things from mild / every day to something very serious and seems significant as that baby had bleeds.
Of course I completely understand why that and other details can't be reported but it makes it hard to know what the evidence actually is and isn't.

It's also hard to unpick who was where as staff do hold doors open, share codes and sign for each other. I'd say that neither points to innocence or guilt as it seems to be common practice on that ward and they were all doing it.

It's also all so long ago I can see why it's unclear who remembers what. I had one premature and sick baby, and one with a rare blood disorder and sick around the same years of this case. I can't remember most of the staff let alone who was stood where. So again, it could be lying or it could be simply no one remembers who did what feed 8 years ago.

That was a ramble. In short all very difficult to unpick. Very difficult job for the jury.

The blood disorder whatever it is does feel like a big piece of missing information that is very relevant especially given the baby’s symptoms

worktired · 23/05/2023 12:18

This is interesting as I had a baby in NICU (at the same time as the babies who died in this case) who had many ups and downs.

Even now, as a parent, I can tell you exactly who (staff) was there when each problem occurred, also who was on shift on (some) specific days.

So while it may be less likely for staff to remember (as it's part of their working routine) I think it's more likely for parents to remember some details.

Fourteenhouses · 23/05/2023 12:20

Prevmidwife · 23/05/2023 10:09

I have been eagerly following this for some time now. It will be massive whatever the verdict will be and I do not envy the job the jury have.

I have changed my mind on lucy Letby more times than I can count. What worries me is that the court seem to have ZERO idea of how a hospital and ward works. There seems to be zero evidence apart from circumstance, and I am disappointed by the lack of detail presented. Each case seems to be skimmed over, despite this running for 7 months. I would be very frustrated if I was sat in court and having to make a decision based on what has been presented.

In terms of lack of insight into the workings of a hospital ward- taking your handover notes home DOES NOT mean you are a murderer. It means you are the same as 80 % of staff working in the nhs. I know multiple colleagues who take theirs home on purpose as a record of their workload on any given day in case there are incidents. Individual patient notes never show how many other patients you are looking after- and so handover notes can provide a wealth of information in case you have to later write a statement. I agree this should not be done and goes against data protection and nursing standards but likewise staff have to protect themselves in poor and unsafe working conditions- and this case is evident of that!!

Likewise- texting at work. EVERYBODY has their phone on them. It's not right. Staff are told not to. But everyone does. Doctors have them also. They use them to look things up, such as drugs etc. It is not out of the usual. Its also not proof of a quiet shift. I think the general public don't understand how difficult this work and these shifts are, especially on a struggling unit where you are constantly being asked to work extras or you get a guilt trip. Life is a whirlwind in-between constant nightshifts. As one of the younger, childless nurses letby will have suffered the brunt of these requests and so been present a lot more than many other staff. She was also specially qualified in the area of intensive care and so more likely to be involved with those babies.

Likewise- Letby's signature will be on lots of babies notes who she may have hardly even cast eyes on. You need 2 people to sign for most drugs. Doesn't mean you have anything to do with that patient. Surely this is completely irrelevant to the case?

I would like to know more details such as- for the baby that had the liver injury, how where they delivered? They were premature, were they delivered by ambulance crew or into a toilet for eg or breech delivery? Happens a lot and some of these babies have birth injuries.

I'd like to know details such as- if murderer- would she not have anything incriminating on her phone? Googling methods or outcomes/symptoms? Will they talk about how she was as a student? Would there be noone from her past who could say anything incriminating about her at all?? What about her childhood. They have mentioned a room decorated like a nursery in her parents house- is this significant?

With the swipe card- they say Letby could have been let in by other members of staff and so no record of her entering the ward- are they suggesting she was there when the parent said she was and swipe data disputed that?

Why mention ibiza and salsa classes. Why is having a life outside work so incriminating? If she was a hermit and never left the house would that be more incriminating or less?

I feel like there is zero motive, and very little evidence she did anything. They need to investigate in more detail how the insulin came to be in the saline in my opinion as those babies are the only ones where there is solid evidence of fowl play.

but why start doing this in 2015. She was 25 with her whole life ahead of her. Did something happen? Was there a grievance before this? Would they not question her parents? I just don't get it and I don't get the lack of detail. Or is she a psychopath? Is there a psychological assessment??

I didn't know about Rebecca Leightons case- what happened with that? Why was she released and who was responsible? Again it was contamination with insulin- how can they drop charges in this case but prosecute Letby?

Really hope this comment doesn't get removed. My background is healthcare and i have no clue how the legal system works so I apologise if I sound like an idiot. I'm just frustrated by this case.

I hasn’t seen anything about a room decorated like a nursery and couldn’t find anything online where was this reported ?

Prevmidwife · 23/05/2023 12:26

Sorry- I can't find it now either. I listen to the mail podcast- maybe it was mentioned in that- not sure what episode though. Fairly sure I haven't imagined it

Prevmidwife · 23/05/2023 12:30

Ok- it's episode 29, 5 minutes in of the Mail podcast. There is a box room in her own house which has been decorated like a nursery. It says she becomes upset after they show the pictures of her house Perhaps decorated by previous owners? Don't know? Why is it relevant.

HelensToenail · 23/05/2023 12:32

Prevmidwife · 23/05/2023 12:26

Sorry- I can't find it now either. I listen to the mail podcast- maybe it was mentioned in that- not sure what episode though. Fairly sure I haven't imagined it

I think the room decorated as a nursery was seen in the pictures shown in court of her house at the time of her first arrest in 2018

It wasn't discussed in court - and I think the assumption is that the previous owners had decorated it like that and she hadn't yet changed it

HelensToenail · 23/05/2023 12:33

sorry x-post

PearWhere · 23/05/2023 13:32

For the previous poster that asked where the trial is at.
Defence started a few weeks ago with Lucy Letby as their first witness. She is still on the stand - court back tomorrow.

I expect they will call others to dispute evidence such as medical and technical (door swipes, who had access to lines etc). That is my guess by the way, but I would expect any defence to do something along those lines.

Time wise, probably a few more months of defence then however long the jury need to deliberate which could be quite long given the number of charges and complexity.

Quitelikeit · 23/05/2023 13:57

Its a interesting perspective from you midwife when you say you keep those sheets to protect yourself but she has not admitted to keeping them for that very good reason

It sends shivers down my spine to think that you even have to do that in this day and age and makes me worry for babies being born up and down the country! (Not criticising you btw)

I agree it’s a v 50/50 case.

LL was on the ward in the evenings (11pm to write her electronic notes up) but did not swipe in. Said night time was quieter - odd time to nip into work. Something happened that night. Do nurses pop into work in the evenings?

LL was searching for parents of babies she was not the named nurse for a few months after their death. Even though she said she couldn’t remember the baby.

To say she was popular with colleagues is doubtful unless you can see their WhatsApp and what they were saying about her to each other

Think one of the bedrooms in her house was decorated by previous owners for a baby

She said she was a hoarder - house did not show that to be true

In her interview she denied having a shredder

She has agreed that the babies were poisoned with insulin

There is no news at all on her family or early life I suspect injunction although have no proof - even her parents first names are not online.

The only thing that is certain is that she was within the rooms within a 15/30 minute timeframe of these babies collapsing

She has denied being incompetent

Its going to be interesting to see what experts her team offer up

[Post edited by MNHQ at poster's request]

RafaistheKingofClay · 23/05/2023 14:16

Prevmidwife · 23/05/2023 12:05

Yes and he was found with one of the drugs actually on his person as he was arrested. Couldn't be any more clear.

I mean if someone had said "we noticed her hanging around the drugs cupboard and acting wierd. or wanting to draw up IVs always on her own... or "I saw her with a syringe of far too much milk" or SOMETHING. ANYTHING. but there is nothing.

I think after this case going forward they should install cctv on wards. I feel it would protect staff and patients. It would be awful environment to work in but maybe its what the nhs needs.

But people have said that. That was why she was moved from nights to days, and then from days to admin when the pattern of unexplained deaths followed her move. I don’t think it even hit reported to the police until they took her off clinical duties and the internal and external inquiries into the deaths started.
I thought it was the results of those inquiries which couldn’t find a medical explanation for the deaths that caused the hospital to go to the police.

HelensToenail · 23/05/2023 14:16

I feel uncomfortable seeing Operation Hummingbird mentioned again

Chester Police have been very clear that it shouldn't be 'mentioned, discussed, speculated on etc in any media including SM

You can see their recent post about it on their website

Prevmidwife · 23/05/2023 14:20

You need to protect yourself as a health care professional more and more in this day and age. I'd say things are significantly worse than they have ever been and significantly worse than 2015. But this is not new information- it's why midwives and nurses are leaving the profession in droves and why there are constant strikes. It's not a safe environment for patients or staff- management and the government knows this but nothing is done.

Prevmidwife · 23/05/2023 14:23

Quitelikeit · 23/05/2023 13:57

Its a interesting perspective from you midwife when you say you keep those sheets to protect yourself but she has not admitted to keeping them for that very good reason

It sends shivers down my spine to think that you even have to do that in this day and age and makes me worry for babies being born up and down the country! (Not criticising you btw)

I agree it’s a v 50/50 case.

LL was on the ward in the evenings (11pm to write her electronic notes up) but did not swipe in. Said night time was quieter - odd time to nip into work. Something happened that night. Do nurses pop into work in the evenings?

LL was searching for parents of babies she was not the named nurse for a few months after their death. Even though she said she couldn’t remember the baby.

To say she was popular with colleagues is doubtful unless you can see their WhatsApp and what they were saying about her to each other

Think one of the bedrooms in her house was decorated by previous owners for a baby

She said she was a hoarder - house did not show that to be true

In her interview she denied having a shredder

She has agreed that the babies were poisoned with insulin

There is no news at all on her family or early life I suspect injunction although have no proof - even her parents first names are not online.

The only thing that is certain is that she was within the rooms within a 15/30 minute timeframe of these babies collapsing

She has denied being incompetent

Its going to be interesting to see what experts her team offer up

[Post edited by MNHQ at poster's request]

Responding to this message

RafaistheKingofClay · 23/05/2023 14:27

Not on topic, but did they really call it operation hummingbird? That seems in poor taste.

Quitelikeit · 23/05/2023 14:39

HelensToenail · 23/05/2023 14:16

I feel uncomfortable seeing Operation Hummingbird mentioned again

Chester Police have been very clear that it shouldn't be 'mentioned, discussed, speculated on etc in any media including SM

You can see their recent post about it on their website

Sorry I didn’t know that I’ll report my comment

HelensToenail · 23/05/2023 14:48

Quitelikeit · 23/05/2023 14:39

Sorry I didn’t know that I’ll report my comment

Show quote history

Maybe you could ask them to just remove the sentence that mentions it

Pity to lose your whole post

Quitelikeit · 23/05/2023 14:48

Prevmidwife · 23/05/2023 14:20

You need to protect yourself as a health care professional more and more in this day and age. I'd say things are significantly worse than they have ever been and significantly worse than 2015. But this is not new information- it's why midwives and nurses are leaving the profession in droves and why there are constant strikes. It's not a safe environment for patients or staff- management and the government knows this but nothing is done.

You poor thing. It’s so worrying.

Public organisations are overwhelmed with bureaucracy and many other issues.

I really cannot see things improving. They seem to get worse year after year.

This year I have heard some terrifying stories about ambulances and bed shortages that really demonstrate that at times the NHS is on its knees and even saving your life is not guaranteed when really it ought to have been straightforward!

Prevmidwife · 23/05/2023 14:51

Quitelikeit · 23/05/2023 14:48

You poor thing. It’s so worrying.

Public organisations are overwhelmed with bureaucracy and many other issues.

I really cannot see things improving. They seem to get worse year after year.

This year I have heard some terrifying stories about ambulances and bed shortages that really demonstrate that at times the NHS is on its knees and even saving your life is not guaranteed when really it ought to have been straightforward!

Show quote history

It's OK i'm one of those who couldnt accept working conditions and left. . :-p I have lots of hcp's in my family and a lot of friends who also find it hard to reach any conclusions in this case however due to the things I have previously said.

Quitelikeit · 23/05/2023 14:54

I don’t blame you I cannot imagine the stress you must have been under when dealing with life or death situations

can I ask if a mother has strep b does baby still need antibiotics if born via c section? Random I know!!

fairgame84 · 23/05/2023 15:19

The blood disorder has been reported on for baby N. The baby had haemophilia but the expert witness for the prosecution said that the baby had a mild case of the condition and it wouldn't have caused such a large bleed and it hasn't caused him problems since.

I don't think there is strong evidence for some of the babies from what has been reported. I'm also uncomfortable that Lucy is accused of being on the ward when her text messages and swipe data show that she wasn't there.

I know everyone texts at work but I work on a busy level 2 nicu and we don't have time to text to the extent that letby does. Obviously texting doesn't make her a murderer but it makes me think the unit wasn't critically understaffed but that's just my opinion.

Fourteenhouses · 23/05/2023 15:30

I agree with you. Whatever the truth is and I really at this point don’t have an opinion either way , the fact that the only evidence of her whereabouts on some of these occasions is being almost ?disregarded. It’s all speculation except for the door entry data and it feels like that is being queried when it’s in her favour ?

Fourteenhouses · 23/05/2023 15:32

I do feel they should be presenting it as ‘parent says they saw her on the ward. Door entry data doesn’t support this (plus whatever the texts are). But it’s like they’ve done that then given ways as to how she might have got into the ward and circumnavigated the door entry system ? Is that allowed in court as it could actually be confusing to the jury surely they just need facts

Prevmidwife · 23/05/2023 15:39

Yeah I think the texting is excessive and the fb searching. And I guess they are only showing the texts relevant here... I presume she was texting other people as well. Does anyone know why some doctors/nurses can be named and some cannot?

Fourteenhouses · 23/05/2023 15:44

Prevmidwife · 23/05/2023 15:39

Yeah I think the texting is excessive and the fb searching. And I guess they are only showing the texts relevant here... I presume she was texting other people as well. Does anyone know why some doctors/nurses can be named and some cannot?

It would be interesting to see the whole search history - was she searching babies parents who hadn’t died ? Or only certain ones , that would be a valuable insight

PearWhere · 23/05/2023 15:44

It's the way it works in English law. The prosecution go first and that's what we've been hearing the past 7 (iirc) months. They set out their case.

The defence has only just started and are still on their first witness. So we haven't heard all of the counter arguments yet.

There have been some agreed facts submitted. These are where the prosecution and defence agree. This includes things like how equipment works, WhatsApp messages and other things neither side dispute.