Letby Case (part 2)

[OneFrenchEgg]

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4652340-lucy-letby-court-case?reply=121815754

follow up, remember rules around discussion of active cases

If anything the note makes think she's not guilty, just because I've had mental health issues and can see how somebody may be doubting themselves to the point that they begin believing they did something they didn't. I think it would be less likely someone who did something like this would write down that they are innocent. All in all, if you are going to believe the rambling confession then you also need to believe the I did nothing wrong bit too, so the note should be completely discounted, in my opinion.

For me, I thought I would need a smoking gun as you put it, however somebody did murder these children (the insulin cannot be an error) and I think there needs to be a line drawn with how many coincidences are actually realistically likely.

To get categorical and indisputable evidence they would have needed her to be under complete scrutiny whilst continuing her job which would have been ethically wrong.

What happens in the scenario she is found innocent - is she then free to return to work ? Or would she be stopped I suppose if found innocent there’s no reason why not but would anyone employ her as a nurse again ? So either way it has a huge effect ?

I’d assume that there may well be enough stuff uncovered E.g. the insane number of confidential documents she had at home that the NMC might find something in a hearing. I’m not sure if their standards have to meet a criminal standard.

But it’s an interesting question. What do you do if someone is found innocent in the eyes of the law but are more likely than not to be guilty and employing them puts patients at risk? I can’t really imagine that she’d want to go back anyway.

I'm guessing she would not be allowed to practice again, she would be found not guilty, not innocent which are different things. I dont think she would pass a DBS check etc... And im pretty sure any trust would throw everything they have at finding reasons not to employ her.

That been said, if they charged and convicted somebody else..... But it does seem that there is nobody else that had the opportunity she had to do this (completely my own opinion).

Her career in nursing is over even if she’s not found guilty.

Yes I can't imagine she would be able to practice again if found not guilty, I doubt there would be many parents willing to take the chance that the verdicts were wrong and the hospital would get terrible press although I don't know how they could get around the legal issues of refusing to employ her without a conviction. I'm not swayed either way on her guilt or innocence but if she didn't do it I really feel for her, she'll always be guilty according to a significant proportion of the public and she'll be hounded for it. Apparently she hasn't even applied for bail and that's very telling, it seems she is far safer in prison than out.

@GemmaN17 I agree, those disjointed incoherent ramblings paint a very different picture to the coldhearted disconnected person we're supposed to believe she is. It is very telling of reporting standards that the tabloids have gone on and on about that one statement as if that was the only thing she wrote there. I don't think the note should be discounted altogether, it is all relevant but needs to be presented in context. I imagine the defence will bring up the "victimisation" "discrimination" and other words too and they should be explored in more depth

I'd imagine there'd still be impediments to her working in nursing... like her woeful compliance with GDPR, given the volume of handover sheets in her house, for starters, and the amount of texting she was doing on duty!

The post it notes are the most unimportant part of the prosecution's case.

There are multiple medical experts who agree that these babies were assaulted or murdered. There are several eyewitnesses and a metric tonne of circumstantial evidence that make Letby the only suspect. I don't see anything that can topple the prosecution, unless the defense can pull out medical experts who can credibly challenge the other expert's views.

There are never smoking guns in health care serial killer cases, and actually many murder convictions generally rely on circumstantial evidence. Real life evidence is rarely as neat and clear cut as murder documentaries make them out to be.

There is actually a lot more evidence than average for a case of this nature.

If she's found not guilty on all 22 charges (and she's certainly not helping herself right now), she will definitely not return as a nurse, there's indisputable evidence that she has broken confidentiality rules loads of times, plus texting on shift, and if found not guilty, then there will be questions about her competence.

Plus, this trial only covers June 2015- June 2016. She was working as a nurse and student nurse from June 2010, and Operation Hummingbird is expected to continue for at least the next three years, investigating the earlier parts of her career. We know that in Liverpool Women's hospital she had two dead babies, one after the other. If she's found not guilty for everything, there's every chance she could be immediately arrested for other charges.

There are never smoking guns in health care serial killer cases

Sorry, but this is nonsense.

I think returning to work will be the least of her concerns if she is found innocent.
No matter what the verdict there are always now going to be people who will believe in her guilt. That was true from the moment of her initial arrest.
I suspect she will be given a new identity and career. She won't ever be able to return to her life before all this

We need to remember that there was enough evidence to convict Sally Clarke and an expert witness who was certain that she had murdered her babies, if social media had been a thing back then I wonder what we'd all have been saying about her? The defence haven't finished presenting their case yet so we shouldn't assume that things are exactly as the prosecution have claimed.

The texting on shift is a fair point although I get the impression it was something that several others did regularly too. Taking handover notes home by accident is so easily done, stick them in your pocket after handover, go home and find them as you're putting your uniform in the wash. If it comes to it that the nmc need something to throw at her the data breach will come in useful but there is no way she's the only one with confidential information at home

Re Sally Clark - Roy Meadows and other such cases have made me wary of male medics who engage in crusades against evil women.

They may be right they may not.

I’m not sure this is the same as Sally Clarke. This is more than a statistical cluster.

No. There's a one way bung for additives in the IV bags

Insulin can be administered via 50 ml syringe driver and titrated with the patients blood sugar level ( adult ICU nurse here )
In my experience these syringes are pre-made in pharmacy at 1 IU insulin per ml
Can't imagine it would be different in a neonate setting

It's obviously not the same at all, I was using her case as an example of why I am anti pitchfork brigade - I wouldn't want it on my conscience that I had joined in on kicking someone when they're already going through a horrible time however much I believed they deserved it at the time. No smoke without fire is not how justice should work

You are not wrong there!

Actually, I wouldn’t be too worried about texting on a night shift either. Would depend a bit on how quiet it was and whether all routines obs and things that should have been done were.

I had a few text conversations with my sister (adult ICU) on a quiet night. (Not that anyone in the NHS remembers what one of those looks like anymore!)

I think the point people are making is that the evidence seemed very damning, but she was innocent.

As far as working as a nurse is concerned, she could still be struck off. I think the regulators work to the lesser "balance of probabilities" standard of proof rather than "beyond reasonable doubt". Certainly the solicitors' regulator strikes people off for far less than Letby has been accused of. On the other hand, we're in desperate times when it comes to getting nursing staff...

We don't have pre made in our nicu.
We add 5units of insulin to 50ml of 10% glucose then give it via syringe driver.

The texting is relevant because part of her defence is that the unit was staffed unsafely. The prosecution say she can't claim it's unsafe but then spend vast amounts of time on shift texting.

@DFAMA the odd handover sheet i can accept but she had 250 spanning years that she'd taken with her through numerous house moves. She owned a shredder but didn't shred any work documents.

Well can you tell me some examples?

Because I can't think of any that are any more damning than the evidence in Lucy Letby's case.

Yes. She had also kept her very first handover sheet from June 2010, and kept it stored and in pristine condition in a special keepsake box.

This proves that for whatever reason, they had sentimental value to her. It also proves she is lying about student nurses not getting handover sheets; 50 of them were from her student days.

These handover sheets survived regular laundering of her uniforms, after being taken home in her pocket.

31 of the 257 were separated into a bag, and 17 of these sheets related to these charges.

She admitted taking home one handover sheet, with the intention of using it to write up her notes for the next day. This goes against her previous claim that it was a total accident and she didn't even think about the 257 papers she brought home and didn't destroy, because she didn't have the shredder that she actually does have.

Bringing them home shows the absolute disregard and disrespect she had for her patients and their confidentiality. I think it's been sufficiently proven that this wasn't an accident.

It in itself doesn't make her a serial killer, but it adds important context if they do find her guilty.

Poor data control doesn't mean much though beyond you're not great at complying with data policy. I've heard more than one person irl saying they've stacks of handovers etc at home and keep forgetting to bring them in for the CW bin.