Letby Case (part 2)

[OneFrenchEgg]

www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4652340-lucy-letby-court-case?reply=121815754

follow up, remember rules around discussion of active cases

Sorry just saw this - thank you that’s helpful

There is, as someone else said ports to inject into drip bags. Link to a photo. The yellow 'cap' at the bottom is a sort of plastic / silicone substance you can inject a substance through it and it 'mends' so it doesn't drip.

https://www.sciencephoto.com/media/618812/view/intravenous-iv-drip-bag

It is normal to add substances to drips, in the cath labs I worked in one used heparinised saline, the other it was part of my job to add heparin (or glucose for a child) to the drip.

I don't want to trivialise in anyway, and I didn't read the other thread but there is a film on Netflix called the good nurse, which shows how easy it is to do, it's based on the story of Charles Cullen who murdered at least 29 people with insulin added to saline bags.

I didn't see those?

@Clawdy if you go on tattle, one of their members has made a really comprehensive wiki with all the evidence, photos, messages etc. You don't need to be a member to view it.

From talking to friends who work in NNU, most level 2 units would only have a couple of deaths each year. The sickest babies get transferred out to a more specialist unit (Arrowe Park and Liverpool Women's would be the local ones in this case) - these units do have higher death rates because the babies there are sicker/more complex.

Most babies in the COC unit would be expected to stay for a few days-weeks for low level breathing/nutrition support. Some were "stepped down" from another unit, when they were stable enough. The number of unexplained, sudden collapses of babies who were otherwise doing well (a couple were almost about to go home, IIRC) is highly unusual.

Week 26 and still only on day 2 of the defence case

LL giving evidence about Baby A's death ATM

Poor parents having to hear this again

As there are reporting restrictions in place for various things I am wondering about the childhood of LL.

Theres no info at all.

Reading the live updates I am starting to finally develop an opinion based on the facts that are being presented.

Even Myers cannot deny the facts. In fact he is reasserting each and every coincidence.

The CPS would not allow this to go to court in the first place if they didn’t believe there was something untoward

Was there not discussion earlier in the trial about how the unit was being used to look after babies who needed level 3 care?

That might be the case but it doesn’t really explain the causes of death for the babies though.

Not sure if this link will work @FurAndFeathers but I saw it on Twitter a few days ago. It’s an FOI request about deaths by month from 2013 to 2018.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/521287/response/1255362/attach/3/FOI%204568.docx?cookie_passthrough=1

The period in question is June 2015 to June 2016

That foi is interesting as it doesn’t necessarily point to a huge spike.

However hearing the evidence and agreed facts all those babies collapsed within minutes of being in the presence of LL

That is agreed. In all cases she was either injecting, feeding, aspirating or measuring something then within a time frame all collapsed sadly some fatally.

There was a clear pattern that emerged.

There’s a spike in 2015 + 2016 but not huge and then it drops again.

Aiui the unit was level 2 but at some point dealing with level 3 babies. It’s not clear at when that started. If anyone knows I’d be grateful for the info.

I don't remember exactly - but level 3 care is slightly different from being a level 3 unit. The COC is a level 2 neonatal unit (or Local Neonatal Unit, LNU) but can provide some level 3 care. https://www.bliss.org.uk/parents/in-hospital/about-neonatal-care/how-does-neonatal-care-work

Level 3 care, in ICU terms, means anyone on a ventilator via a tube in their throat (not CPAP via a mask), or anyone requiring multi-organ support. A level 2 unit, like the COC, as I understand it (doctor with experience in adult ICU but not NICU) is able to provide some short term level 3 care for babies needing ventilation etc - generally only for a couple of days. If they were likely to need longer term ventilation, or be deteriorating, they would aim to transfer out. Generally level 2 units only take babies from ~28 weeks - though if an earlier baby were born there unexpectedly, they would stabilise them and aim to transfer out.

A level 3 neonatal unit cares for all extreme preterm (<28w) infants, babies needing invasive ventilation for longer than a few days, multiple organ support, and babies needing surgery. There are some even more specialist hospitals looking after babies needing e.g. cardiac surgery shortly after birth - only a handful of these in the UK.

Oh I think that was in the prosecution’s opening statement. I did read that the other day. I think they can provide ventilated care for 48hrs.

presumably because some of the babies at the younger end of that gestation may need some ventilation immediately after birth but can be moved to CPAP fairly quickly. Transfering them out and then back again almost immediately may not be in their best interests?

The CPS would not allow this to go to court in the first place if they didn’t believe there was something untoward

Well of course but that’s not the same as ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’ otherwise why bother with a trial at all? by that logic no one would ever be found ‘not guilty’

you can’t assume that just because a case made it to court there’s evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

The CPS decide whether to prosecute on the following basis - 1. If there’s enough evidence to potentially secure a conviction and 2. If it’s in the public interest.

The CPS don’t make a judgment as to whether a defendant is guilty, simply whether would there be sufficient evidence to convict if they jury decide they are.

The trial is then heard to establish whether the defendant has broken the law. It’s for the jury not the CPS to decide whether the defendant is proven to be guilty.

Fur and feathers

I didn’t mention reasonable doubt - you did and I never assumed anything about reasonable doubt

and re the CPS see what pp said - basically if they let it go to court they believe there’s a chance of conviction and now listening to the evidence again with Ben Myers I can see why!!

I wonder if it was her idea to take the stand? those who like attention always seem keen to take the stand thinking they can handle and outsmart the lawyers - I think she is going to get torn to shreds by the prosecution

I really expected expert witnesses to explain why the previous medical experts have been wrong but nope not yet

What I said was it’s not the CPS’s role to make a judgment on guilt.

I agree with @FurAndFeathers

Sufficient evidence to justify trying the case in court is not the same as sufficient evidence to prove the case beyond doubt - that’s up to the jury to decide not the CPS.

I really expected expert witnesses to explain why the previous medical experts have been wrong but nope not yet

Two days into the case and you expected a fully watertight convincing defence?

honestly the more you post, the more biased and deluded you sound.

I didn’t mention reasonable doubt - you did and I never assumed anything about reasonable doubt

that’s my point. You didn’t bother with a fundamental premise of the justice system. You assumed CPS evidence= a smoking gun

Feathers

Yes I expected more from Ben Myers

If that makes me deluded then your standard for throwing insults around is pretty low

And re reasonable doubt thank you I know how verdicts are reached!!

You and mirabue should catch up over coffee 🤣🤣🤣🤣

I think the defendant has to give evidence first, so if the defence has their own experts they won't testify until after LL has finished giving her evidence.

Yes and that will likely take several days