How are teachers paid?

[Wallstick]

Often when I see a thread about teaching there are comments about teachers working unpaid hours. Out of curiosity how does that work? I know they don't finish work when the children leave. But do teachers get paid only while the children are there? So they work 6-6 say but only paid 8.30-3.30? I don't think that should be legal tbh.

At our DC school there's lots of extra things that I wouldn't have seen when I was at school and it makes me feel uncomfortable that the teacher isn't paid for this? There's scrapbooks and they update an online journal with photos and notes, I see the teachers at the weekend psa events, DC say the teachers are in the lunch hall too. Are the teachers not getting a lunch break then? When I went to school it was dinner ladies and supervisors, teachers were in the staff room usually.

I think people need to read @RockingMyFiftiesNot 's original post properly! They're sticking up for teachers, the 'ignorant' part is not aimed at teachers. I had to read it twice too!

But they still have an amount of hours they are contracted to just like any other employed person. In any other role even if you are paid an annual salary (as most people are), your contract will state 37.5 hours per week for example.

That’s good about your sister. My frontline CP work was between 2002 and 2012, in a v deprived area. Hopefully things are better now! We need good Social Workers to stay.

I answered a question 🤷🏽‍♀️ deflecting because it doesn't fit the narrative doesn't change the fact that there are other professions that do unpaid overtime

I do think it's relevant though - I don't know of many other professions with average earnings of £30-40K (and no bonuses, perks etc) where it is completely normal, and indeed necessary for the job, to work every night once kids are in bed and at the weekends too. Second another poster who mentioned having to send in detailed work even when ill.

I also don't feel this is common knowledge amongst other professionals, unless they have close family or friends who teach.

I'm not bemoaning my job - it's why it has become an unsustainable career for me and I now work in a different way!

Thanks @ShirleyHolmes - she is amazing at it, and with children in general. 😊

Exactly. How many other roles are you expected to plan a full days work for the duration of your sickness absence?

But the vast majority of employees are paid via a fixed salary and don't get overtime pay. It's not remotely specific to teachers. Do you think all salaried employees should go on strike?

I think the problem with teaching is that the preparation time is not defined - in a way if you were only allowed to work at your work place and not outside then it would mean that the hours were more defined.

I know many teachers who work hard but often the estimation of hours given is not always accurate ie "I work four hours every night" that is not 4 hours solid it might be 2 or doing something else whilst working.

In addition the holiday time generally does not involve working.

I do think teaching is underpaid for the skill level but I think that some of the claims regarding the hours spent quite simply are not true or if they are true the person doing the job has low level skills (or is a perfectionist.)

Most professions: law, accounting and medicine all typically require far longer hours than teaching.

It wouldn't surprise me. Academies are horrendous for staff and students. I started at a LA school which converted and it's been awful ever since. The level of corruption and micro managing I see is staggering. They're basically business and the children and staff are secondary.

I think it is unsustainable which is why we see so many teachers leaving the profession. It has to be done for the day to happen. Every single day.

It's like having 5 new presentations to deliver every day but all the planning of them is done on your own time and no days to catch up.

There's facebook groups with teachers looking to leave and I think if people realised how many gaps there are in there children's schools (being taught be a TA, albeit a hlta is now actually the norm... it used to be necessary to have a trained teacher in the room for example) . Non specialists teaching core subjects. It really is bad.

But people carry on blaming the teachers or think they're just "moaning." 🙄

But the vast majority of salaried employees can just pack up and leave at 17:00 or whatever their contracted finish time is and leave whatever work they have left until the following day. Yes some do work above their hours but not an average of 20 hours a week as a minimum expectation. Many will also get paid overtime for the extra they do, or be allowed to take time in lieu, teachers aren't.

So you don’t actually do the job - but when people who are doing the job tell you their experience of it, you insist they are lying?

For the record, when I was teaching, across the year I ended up doing around twice as many hours as I was actually contracted for. Not because my skills were bad, possibly because I was a perfectionist, but mostly because that’s the culture just to keep your head above water. The long hours, constant appalling behaviour, abuse, lack of breaks and being criticised constantly constantly constantly destroyed my health. There is a reason people are leaving the profession in droves.

Disclaimer (apparently required for teachers before posting!): I know there are plenty of other jobs who work as hard or harder than teachers! Just giving my view on teaching as asked by the OP. I haven't done other jobs except retail so don't feel I can comment on other professions.

OP, yes, you have it right. Many (not all) class teachers work over their scheduled hours, just to get the normal job done. Those who want to progress will often do much, much longer hours.

I left mainstream teaching and now work in SEN. I'm paid a normal teacher wage for 5 hours a day plus an hour a week for a meeting. I do work a couple of hours at the weekend and very occasionally I work an extra hour after work. However, if a child is off ill I get that time as extra PPA. I cannot progress as I'm at the top of the payscale for non-leadership, so I do enough to do my job but I won't take on extra things. I like my work, it's flexible enough.

Teachers have this clause in their working conditions that says they essentially need to work any other hours required to get the job done. Which is so vague it means some teachers have been loaded on with specific marking policies or planning requirements etc. Or academies are not required to even follow these conditions and can make up whatever conditions they want.

It's a tricky profession to be in at the moment (as many are, it seems).

@TeaStory

My point is about the hours. Regarding the other aspects of the role I agree with you - the pressure of Ofsted, behaviour, culture within schools and over burden of paperwork is unacceptable - my points was regarding hours

Teachers get paid an annual salary so it’s divided up evenly, but it doesn’t fairly cover the hours actually worked, I think that’s the point of contention.
I think many teachers would very happily clock in and out! They’d get paid a lot more, even without the holidays being covered.

I don't 👍🏼 and never have, been teaching ten years

In Scotland teachers are contracted to 35 hours a week, plus an additional 35 hours a year planned professional development time. I know no one who doesn’t work significantly more than that.

@Krapom indeed, that’s how many hours my SIL who is a teacher works approximately. She’s a part time teacher, working Mon-Wed…
Not sure how many professions consider 35 hour weeks ‘part time.’

I agree that lots of other professions routinely require you to work more than your contracted hours. I've worked in several and my DH is a teacher. The differences I see from my experience are:

1. In many other professions the pay for qualified, experienced staff is far better than in teaching. This is the biggest issue- pay for experienced staff has (in real terms) dropped significantly over the last 5-10 years whereas in other professions pay has increased.
2. In other professions there is often some flexibility over working hours- so in the past if I've had to work long hours on a project I could take a bit of time off another time etc
3. Teachers do, in theory, have more holiday time that most. However, most teachers I know spend at least half of the shorter holidays working/preparing and at least a week in the Summer working. So I suspect most only take the same number of actual days off not working as other professions are given- but there is no flexibility to have holiday at other times of the year. I think they all understand that this is necessary but the 'but you get long holidays' argument is not as string as people think.

I've always been self employed and the people I know on salary always just work their hours. Sometimes they do an odd hour or two extra but I've never had friend or family tell me they're expected to do it. I don't know how bad other salaried jobs are because I haven't done them or hear about them. If anyone thinks they should earn more and agree to strike I doubt I'd complain tbh 🤷‍♀️

It also depends, doesn’t it, why you’re doing all the extra hours. So, when I was in private practice as a newly qualified accountant (so on a very similar salary as DH who is a teacher). I used to routinely work 60 hour weeks and there was no flexi time, no time in lieu and I had 25 days holiday. So my hourly rate was much much lower than DH’s. But I did that because either I was aiming for partner (where the salaries are very very good) or to flip into industry (as I actually did) where my salary was good (I still earn slightly more than DH who is an assistant head) and I work closer to my hours. Closer because if a job needs doing I’m still on my laptop after the DC are in bed. And no time in lieu (except the once when I finished at 4am and my boss told me he didn’t want to see me again that day!) or overtime.

All this does not mean that teachers do not vowel extremely hard and that there are not too many pointless things they have to do for the government…

@KatherineofGaunt

Teachers have this clause in their working conditions that says they essentially need to work any other hours required to get the job done. Which is so vague it means some teachers have been loaded on with specific marking policies or planning requirements etc. Or academies are not required to even follow these conditions and can make up whatever conditions they want.

This, I find worrying. I didn't know that. Even from a completely selfish point of view. I do feel for teachers but, on top of that, the person being overworked for an undefined amount of time is looking after my DC. I guess it's less of a worry because there's plenty of other adults around in a school, but still, it's not good.

But pretty much every working contract has the clause “and anything else deemed necessary “ etc?

Yip we just get a salary. I have gone part time and fallen out of love with teaching since having my baby last year. It’s only now that I’ve fully noticed just how ridiculous the unpaid overtime is. In one week last week I was asked to attend a school trip all day on my day off (unpaid). I was asked to go to give out tickets for a sports club on a Saturday (school related, unpaid). I was asked to ‘volunteer’ (lol at the word volunteer as if it’s now a charity rather than a place of work) at two discos at night on days I wasn’t even working. I was asked to volunteer (😂) to help set up and run the school fayre one night. I was asked to stay after school to help with the football trials. None of this is my actual job and somewhere in amongst all of that I need to fit in planning, making new resources for every lesson as I’ve been moved stage again, actually teaching the kids, marking, assessments and so on. Now I’m part time I don’t have time to go to the staff room at break or lunch time as I would just never get home at night. It’s horrendous and there’s no thanks for any of it, this will be my last year 😔