Foreign mothers Vs British mothers (nature V nurture)

[Condescendingtwats]

Looking for an interesting discussion on this as I’ve been pondering it for years! More so since becoming a mother myself. I don’t want to ask anyone in RL as don’t want to offend.

So in the UK and maybe other western countries we don’t tend to leave our babies with family and move away. In fact society in general can even be judgey about a mother going on nights out/holidays and leaving their babies with others.

A lot of mothers in the UK would say they couldn’t physically leave their child, it would make them ill/depressed and it unthinkable. A lot say it’s an instinctual thing and babies/children need their parents. They need their babies bear them.

But then, over my adult years I’ve met many mothers from all over the world due to work as well as travel.

In Thailand I met baby mothers who’s small children were still being raised by grandparents in their home village whilst they worked in the city to provide. Under stable and no choice due to poverty.

Then at work I met about 5 mothers over the past decade from Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Ghana who have children in their home country with family as well as other children here in the UK. They are doctors/nurses so not poor and no visa issues. Ann example is one mother who has a kids 8,5, 3 and a baby. The 8 year old and 1 year old baby in the UK with her but the 5 and 3 Year old are in Nigeria.

Then I met a Romanian mother at my baby class a few months back who has a child who’s 4 years old and living in Greece with relatives (same dad and both good jobs). Her youngest baby is here with her.

So it’s not always poverty related but seems to be ‘the norm’ in their cultures.

But there doesn’t appear to be any devastation of not being their their small kids or an urgency to see/send for them. They sound perfectly happy.

So that makes me wonder is what we (British mums) feel about being apart from our babies/children is more societal condition as opposed to a biological/instinctual need to be near our kids?

Does anyone have any experience of this and can explain it more clearly to me?

Im not judging by the way, just interested in the differences.

Also before anyone says it.. in regards to dads, well they seem to be able to walk away from their children all over the world so not really surprised at that.

That is so interesting regarding attachment theory and other cultures.

if a baby is being raised by multiple family members within the same household (grandparents, aunts), then how would a secure attachment be for ones to 1 primary carer?
I don’t believe there are entire nations with insecure attachments but the lucky UK has it right.

Thank you everyone for your replies. So interesting.
I wonder how families decide which children to take with them and which to leave at home?

I am a foreign mum from a developing country with one DD. Parents leaving their children with their relatives for years to work in other countries are pretty common in poor countries. It is socially acceptable as the choice is either being in destitute/poverty or not. It is a case of survival.
In most poor countries, there is no social welfare. Governments provides nothing. So, if someone is born from poor family they have no one to rely on. If someone is sick and too poor to pay for a hospital, then it is just a case of accepting the fate. There is also an expectation to provide financial support for parents/younger siblings (again, due to no social welfare). So, an adult with children not only needs to support their children but also their parents, their siblings etc.
Sometimes it doesn't make economic sense for a parent to bring over their children when they have already got a job abroad. The country where the parent immigrates for work usually has a higher living cost (hence higher wages, at least compared to their home country). So, the money they earn worth more back home. It is also quite expensive and difficult to bring over family member permanently. Obtaining a residence permit (albeit temporarily) costs a lot of money. In contrast to what people think, legally settling in other country as immigrants is really hard and very very costly!
I actually find it strange that, here, there is an expectation that parents have to be with their children. Plenty of my married friends (males and females) with children live in different cities/countries for a whole week, even months for their jobs. I see nothing wrong with that.
Would the children be happier if their parents are around? Of course. But if you have to choose to live together as a family in poverty or live separately but have decent life, what would you choose? The biggest difference between poor and western countries is the social welfare system. A single mum with children (even if they have no families to help out financially) can expect to be housed and receive financial support here. In poor countries? They could end up living in slums or streets, no hope for the children to be educated properly to give them a way out from poverty.
I used to have a part time job as a learning assistant in a college while I was a student. My heart bleeds seeing how some of the students there didn't even bother to learn properly when the education provided is free (and sometimes even they receives some kind of maintenance). In poor countries, education is the way out of poverty. Without this, generation of families will be trapped in families forever. I would not bat an eyelid leaving my children behind if that means I could send them money so that they could receive education and means to get out of poverty.

Babies can attach to regular carers. There's always one they see more of, even if there are aunties and uncles there too. There's always someone with primary responsibility, and the carers all bond with the baby.

The issue comes when that's repeatedly broken, or can't even start. So a rota of staff who are nice but distant doesn't cut the mustard. It's about taking time to gaze into the babies eyes, make them giggle, rub their back because they look a bit fractious. It's a two way, responsive process. When you see staff who are doing that, then put the baby down and walk away without a backward glance you can see what it is. Attachment doesn't switch off.

Any doubt about the importance of attachment would disappear if you'd worked with fostered DC.

*if a baby is being raised by multiple family members within the same household (grandparents, aunts), then how would a secure attachment be for ones to 1 primary carer?

I don’t believe there are entire nations with insecure attachments but the lucky UK has it right.*

No, I don’t believe so either! Absolutely not. And by the way I’m not sure the UK does have it right - we still have a culture where the mother is very much the default parent, and where we are often isolated from family networks, and I don’t really see either of those things as positive.
I guess in a culture where care is genuinely shared between numerous family members then what happens is that the baby forms multiple attachments concurrently? I couldn’t say, because I haven’t read any studies on that particular set up. In a lot of countries where there are multiple carers, the mother is still the primary caregiver because breastfeeding rates tend to be higher.

Thanks for that info @CoveredInCobwebs If anyone has read the Continuum Concept that is an interesting (albeit anecdotal) account on multiple caregivers. Babies are basically given over to younger girls of the tribe to look after as the mother works but she returns to feed it. They aren't consistent caregivers either, it can be anyone who is available.

But there doesn’t appear to be any devastation of not being their their small kids or an urgency to see/send for them. They sound perfectly happy.

Just because they don't appear sad doesn't mean they aren't.

I think it is partially a class/money thing. I know a doctor from Brazil and we were asking about his upbringing and home life (he came from a very wealthy, middle class family). He became very snarky when we asked him what did his wife do for a living. He said she was a stay at home mother and wife, as he wanted his children to be raised properly by their mother and too many British women prioritise their career over their families (sexist pig 😡)

Whereas I know a nurse from the Philippines whose children live with her parents. She said they grew up dirt poor, and her parents worked many jobs to get her a good education to become a nurse. She now works in the U.K and sends money home to support her parents and provide a good education for her children in hopes to break the cycle of poverty. On a side note, she once came out with us for a Christmas do. We was only meant to stay for a few drinks but was coaxed into staying out longer, got really drunk and spent loads of money. She felt so guilty for weeks as that was money that could have gone to her family.

@LisaJool I haven’t read that but it’s been on my mental reading list for absolutely ages! I find it fascinating to look at different ways of parenting across the globe. It’s very easy to get enmeshed in our own culture and not look at things that work really well elsewhere.

@CoveredInCobwebs its a bit weird in places, but if you're looking for a cross cultural reference then it's very interesting. I too find it fascinating. 'We' are definitely not always right!

This is the position of most of the people I know who have left their children behind and I think the most insightful post on the thread.

My grandmother once 'I could never do it' and my friend (who has) said 'even if staying meant your children would grow up in poverty?'

I think people in the U.K. have so much of a better standard of living than they realise (on a global scale) they don't really understand the choices other parents are making when they work away from their children.

I have noticed this too. I have friends whose parents moved here from other counties so although my friends are British born and bred, their approach to parenting is different. There's an expectation that grandparents will help raise from birth and sleepovers start almost immediately. They are also sleep trained very early and expectation is the child fits around the family, not vice versa.

All of their children are happy and healthy so it obviously works for them.

And here I am, years down the line and yet to even leave DC with a grandparent for more than an hour.....

It could be both - a cultural and a poverty thing.

in NZ Māori families it’s very normal for children to move between parents / grandparents / aunties as they are growing up. When he was teaching there, DH reckoned that at least 25% of his Māori students would leave each term, replaced by others. Not a poverty thing necessarily, more a cultural acceptance that parents / grandparent / aunties are much more on a par with each other than in our culture.

we’re in France, where it is very normal for parents to send even very young children away to grandparents for serval weeks over summer. So the 8 week holidays might go : two weeks at summer camp, two weeks with one grand parents, two weeks with other grandparents, two weeks family holiday with parents. Children as young as 4 go to ‘colo’ for a week.

Yes, I remember a newspaper story a few years ago about a German couple who wanted their 6 year old to walk to school in the UK. People were outraged but it is normal in Germany! However, it does help to have better cycling and walking infrastructure (ditto the Netherlands and Denmark).

Also the Soham murders led to hysteria in the UK about stranger (and not so stranger danger), criminal records checks etc and children have had even less freedom since. And the Moors Murders in the 1960s had a major impact as well. I don't know if there have been incidents like it in Germany which gradually/not do gradually nibbled at parents' confidence in letting their kids have more freedom.

I also remember reading a newspaper article some years ago about the way Dutch parents are with their children - they don't preen themselves in the way British parents do when their child does something good (something that really annoys me, and even more so when everything bad that a child does is down to inadequate "parenting"). I don't know if other countries have the notion of "parenting" or whether they are just parents.

I don’t believe there are entire nations with insecure attachments but the lucky UK has it right

Me neither. In Scandinavia it is normal for babies to go to nurseries and they seem reasonably well adjusted societies on the whole!

Just wanyed to say that as a Foster carer I agree with everything you've said.

I have fostered babies and truly loved them as my own, they were then able to transfer that attachment gradually over 7 days during introductions week and had successfully integrated into their forever families.

I’m not convinced that the extended family all pooling their resources is the right approach. An individual/ couple would then be basically at the mercy of the rest of the group. If their opinions differed the individual would be stuck with having to do / go along with the group. Also stuck in the same house as your parents / siblings for the rest of your life and never running your own show would be many people’s idea of hell.

My observation is the I find children in this country to be quite babied for a very long time and independence is not encouraged. So it’s no wonder a mother is not willing to leave her child for so long because the child stays so reliant on her for so long. Pair this with the shaming of women into being “just mums” and nothing else it created a very isolated and often neurotic little world. Mumsnet is the absolute worst place to be i feel especially for uk mums. Everyone here pretends to be perfect and it’s not a reflection of the real world and real families int he slightest.

@Lightningfast - true. There are downsides to multi generational living. Some parents/grandparents are abusive/irresponsible. I have known people who are saddled with their siblings’ debts…. HOWEVER - especially in societies where there is not much govt assistance, clubbing together can bring benefits to the group - easier to live together and save for a house deposit or care for babies or sick/elderly relatives.

I'm a grandparent and would love to fully look after my grandchildren but I'm working full time. My own Dad worked until 74, and my Mum is still working at 72.

It's not a case of affording it, it's a case of running a business and struggling to find half decent staff to cover me!

@Firecarrier What a wonderful thing you do/ have done

Ah thank you, it's very rewarding 😊

I agree, I feel it is my job as a parent to turn out responsible, capable young adults and like to encourage that gradually from a young age.

Unfortunately not everyone is of the same mindset, thereby ending up with teenagers who don't know how to catch a bus etc.

Also, from a selfish point of view it makes it hard, as your own child can't go out to play because other parents don't let their children out so there isn't anyone to play with!

My grandmother did this to a certain extent but i am from a city state so she could still see her children on weekends. She sent her eldest to be cared for by her mum and the last two children to be cared for by a distant relative. She saw them on weekends and she remembers my dad crying when it was time to go.This was only until age 6.

When my parents had me, there was a temptation to do this as they worked really long hours and my maternal grandmother who volunteered to raise me didn't live nearby (even though its a city, it still takes time to get around). But they did resist this and endured long pick up trips for several months until my paternal grandma (who lived with my parents) volunteered to care for me.

Whether its financial is relative. Akshata Murthy (rishi's wife) was raised by grandparents and her dad would fly back every weekend to see her. They would have been middle class when building up their business. I think middle class people in India probably do have a choice (esp with such high income inequality, they could have gotten a nanny to care for her), but they must have felt this was for the best. When the children were older, they did join the parents .

My MIL (in Italy) wanted me to hand over DS saying it was common for parents to go work abroad to send money back to their DC living with grandparents. Had to point out I wasn’t abroad and ds was fine with me and I didn’t need to send him abroad to her.

in my own family - lots of relatives from East African countries. One cousin left with GPs while mum was in another country (but she took her younger son). No financial advantages at all as the are comfortably off - it was more cultural eg everyone in the family is everyone’s mum/dad/aunt/sister/brother/child etc. all important and interchangeable.

I was regularly packed off to family for summer holidays.

And here many of them are at the mercy of the government? My MIL is basically at the mercy of the government as she only has state pension. if the government decides that they can't afford state pensions anymore, she would be cold and hungry. If she was living with me and DH, she would not starve as we would pay all bills and food

For now, most people can afford to buy or rent their own house or get benefits from the government to do so? But what happens to the 30% of people who can't afford to buy? There is very little council housing and they will not be able to afford private rent in their old age. I can see little alternative for them except to move to their children's house ( i met a lovely old lady over the weekend with this kind of set up and she is still working). Even for the people who can afford to buy,i foresee that there would be no state pensions in future and you need a very large pension pot in order to get decent provision. So i can foresee some people selling their homes to fund their retirement and then clubbing together with their children to buy a home together. The children may be fine with doing this if the alternative is renting forever.