Withdrawing child from a subject they don't enjoy

[LittleMissGossip]

I've read parents have the right to withdraw dc from RE lessons, and I'm wondering whether this applies to other subjects (none compulsory subjects). Have dc who has zero interest in music, not gaining anything from the sessions at all, so wondering whether they can do alternative work in that time?
Unable to find exact information on the legalities of it all.
This is year 7 child, and if it makes any difference, at a grammar school.
Thank you!

Yes, I believe so. RE lessons aren't defined by the national curriculum are they, and aren't necessarily neutral sources of information. Some kids with extreme parents probably would be withdrawn from school entirely if there wasn't an opt out.

Withdrawing a kid from RE because of ethical or religious objections isn't remotely similar to trying to get your kid opted out of something they don't enjoy. Maybe they need to develop a more open mind.

When my eldest was at school, those in the autism resource didn't do RE and they did life skills instead. Other lessons were missed depending on the child, but parents couldn't really choose, the teachers did what they thought was best. So mine missed music, others missed languages and PE. Is there somewhere your child could go instead (inclusion unit etc)? If not this is where you may come unstuck. Or would your child be allowed to wear headphones, but do some other work instead - maybe music theory?

...hadn't read the update about sensory issues. That sounds like it needs diagnosis and then 'reasonable adjustment' considerations might apply.

If it’s likely a sensory issue, and you don’t yet have a diagnosis, you’ll get further on ‘reasonable adjustment’ grounds (where withdrawal from music could be a reasonable adjustment) if you pursue a diagnosis or at least start discussing it with school.

The only circumstances where children are withdrawn from a subject that isn’t RE is when there is a specific learning disability or other issue that means them doing that subject is detrimental to their academic progress or personal well-being in some way.

Examples I can think of from my own experience (I’ve been a secondary teacher for a decade) are children being allowed to not do a foreign language because they joined the school in year 9 and didn’t have any prior knowledge so they were just too far behind to ever catch up, and GCSE students with severe dyslexia being allowed to drop English Literature to enable them to focus on English Language and ensure a pass.

Allowing a Year 7 child who’s been at school for 5 minutes to drop an arts subject they don’t like? Utterly ridiculous suggestion! as others have said, if we allowed pupils to drop subjects they don’t like at any stage of school life, we’d have chaos on our hands. Where would these children with random free periods go? Who would supervise them? What would they do with this extra time? And what message would this send - that anything you don’t like or find hard you can just give up at the first hurdle?

The whole point of school is to open your eyes to new knowledge and experiences, to push you out of your comfort zone, challenge you and enable you to develop resilience. I suggest you have a word with your child and encourage them to go into their music lessons with a more open mind and make the effort to engage and try their best. If they are really struggling, then ask to the see the subject teacher so you can find out what extra support they can give them to get more enjoyment out of it. Please don’t suggest to them that Music doesn’t matter or has less value than their other subjects - so many parents have this attitude towards the Arts in schools and it results in children who use these subjects as an excuse to muck about because Mum says they don’t matter anyway. As a Drama teacher, I do not appreciate this at all!

My autistic brother hated music at primary school. We realised by halfway through year 7 that his hatred was actually caused by having some musical talent and not being able to stand hearing 3 blind mice being murdered on 20 recorders at the same time. We were able to withdraw him from the class music lessons to do 1:1 private instrument tuition. He ended up with quite a few grade exams in a few instruments. But his Statement (what EHCPs were called a million years ago) was key in being able to push for it.

It's not a pick and mix sweet shop.

I think it depends how badly it is affecting them and their willingness and ability to attend. If it were just really not enjoying it and being disinterested it would be a case of sucking it up. Re sensory issues I would urge you to investigate this properly and ask for an OT referral in case it is symptomatic of a wider issue as yet undiagnosed. Opting out of music could be a "reasonable adjustment" if it leaves them anxious or dysregulated for the rest of their learning.

FWIW DC has dropped some GCSE courses (for a tonne of legit reasons) and goes to sit in learning base, library or even isolation (no-one talks to you so likes it). Older though and school is exceptionally flexible.

Taking your child out of RE.is an archaic law. The expectation was that you would then turn up in that lesson time and use it to teach your own religion. It's just stuck around really.

As others have said, an adaptation due to the needs can be looked at, taking a child out of a lesson because they don't like it is a no. Especially as they have only experienced a few weeks of it! Talk to the music teacher about what is going on. Chances are they may have come across something similar or have some ideas to try to help your child get through the lessons.

Just seen the update about sensory issues. It would have been helpful to have said this in the initial post!

In this circumstance you need to make an appointment to see the SENCo urgently and start the process of getting an assessment done. In the meantime they’ll SENCo can work with your child and the music teacher to try some possible adjustments to help them feel more comfortable and be able to tolerate the classes. If none of these work and your child really can’t cope, then I’m sure the school would support your child being withdrawn from the class and they would be able to spend those lessons being supervised in the school library or other study/quiet space where they can do homework. When it comes to SEN there is much more flexibility when it comes to adapting the curriculum to suit an individual child’s needs.

They probably won't allow it which seems silly to me. I had the same problem with P.E I absolutely fucking hated it. No matter how many times I begged to go to another class I wasn't allowed. So eventually I just lied through my teeth and did it anyway. I got away with it for so long they just accepted it in the end.

Ah, OP, if only. My DC hate PE. It would be wonderful of instead of playing rounders my DC could do some extra maths quizzes or piano practice instead, but sadly the school world does not much care what children like. Still, always worth asking the school.

RE and parts of PSHE are an exception for historical reasons.

Apologies I should have mentioned sensory issues in original post.

I absolutely understand subjects can't be dropped just because child doesn't enjoy them, currently isn't enjoying 3 languages, but that isn't something I would consider altering as that is just a case of not enjoying.

I will look into getting diagnosis and help from senco.

Thank you for the replies,

That. It would have been helpful of you'd mentioned sensory issues in the OP.

Does he have any other difficulties in school or at home which would lead to a diagnosis? Have you pursued that?

My daughter finds absolutely no value in RE. She says she can learn more about world religions on thr BBC website. But she's not allowed to withdraw. She also hates PSHE with a passion, because she finds it patronising (probably the fault of the teacher, tbf) but again, can't get out of it. She's had to grit her teeth and crack on with it.

You don’t need a diagnosis for reasonable adjustments to be made in school, which could include being exempt from a subject. There are children who attend in partial timetables but it’s usually a last resort. School will probably want to explore other options for helping your child to cope with music lessons but if it doesn’t work, it is a reasonable adjustment. Lots of children have a pass to leave class and go to the nurture room in my dc’s school. Might that be a possibility if he is overwhelmed?

@saraclara other things he's mentioned is how it is too loud at times, and this brings on a feeling of anger and frustration.

@NoYouSirName that's good to know, I'm not sure if this school has anything similar in place, but will find out, thank you

It's hard to know if that's something linked to a possible diagnosis, or a bit of a shock to the system having been homeschooled for all the primary years. I can imagine that a room of 30 kids doing musical stuff is going to be hard to cope with when you come across it for the first time aged 12.

@saraclara yes that makes sense. Other issues is things like, having to have phones on silent as the key sounds are extremely frustrating, can't stand eating/swallowing sounds. He was always trying to keep his hands clean when younger, wouldn't try things like finger painting activities (a little better now but still has panic getting hands 'dirty')

Mine was able to skip 2 lessons and spent time elsewhere under reasonable adjustments

I started the ball rolling by talking to the head of year and senco. Teachers had also noticed problems with these two subjects.

School had a CAHMS worker attached to it and asked for them to see ds. He was able to explain all the sensory issues with these lessons and the CAHMS worker suggested he be allowed to skip them. Thankfully grammar school were amazing in listening to her.

He spent those lessons in the library or when no one available he went into the inclusion room. He was also allowed to use specific areas when he felt overwhelmed due to sensory needs.

If you have the money go for a private assessment. NHS waiting times are insane. Ds was put in fast track by the CAHMS worker but still took around 30 months for the diagnosis.

Sometimes in life we have to do things we don't enjoy 😉

Not if there are or potentially are some issues at play, WE don’t. 😉 Spoken like someone with no knowledge or empathy though or who hasn’t read the thread, well done. 🙄

It’s an interesting question, OP. I remember not understanding why I had to pick a technology to do at GCSE level. There were 3 to pick from and I hated all 3, and wished I could’ve just used the time to revise for Maths, which I struggled with and was worried I wouldn’t pass.
I ended up choosing the one with the least amount of coursework and only revised for it (read through my notes) the night before my GCSE exam. It was a total waste of my time.

I think at Year 7 your DC probably will have to just suck it up unfortunately, unless you can speak to school about sensory issues and the distress it’s causing.

@DancingInHisShirt actually I replied before the comments about sensory were visible to me .

The whole thread would have taken a different tone from the beginning if this was mentioned .

That is TOTALLY reasonable and school should be aware of other options to make adjustments